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Take the A Train D7b5 substitution......

J

Johnny StingRay

Guest
Nov 24, 2006
749
746
#1
Hello TBers!

The first four bars of "Take the A Train" (Key of C Major) are C / / / C / / / D7b5 / / / D7b5 / / /.

I've been working on developing a system to efficiently memorize the chord progressions of twenty jazz standards Aimee Nolte recommends every "jazzer" know by memory and in every key.

When I started with "Take the A Train", for some reason the D7b5 wouldn't stick in my brain, but I realized that C7#5 might be a good substitute for D7b5. For me it was easy to remember C for two measures then C7#5 for two measures.

When I play it with a backing track the substitution sounds OK.

I just wanted to know what all of you knowledgeable "jazzers" on TB thought about it.

In reference to my system of trying to memorize these songs, I'm converting to using the Roman numeral system then grouping related parts of the songs then trying to apply some mnemonic devices I used to teach my students when I taught special needs kids in Detroit. The system is in its infancy, so I still have a lot of bugs to work out to make it efficient for me. It is fun, though! It's forcing me to really get into the theory and chord construction of each song. I'm starting to see a lot of redundancy from one song to the next that makes memorization an easier task. I'm also hearing bits and pieces that work for more than one song.........for example: I'm starting to recognize more complex progressions that are common from one song to another just like I (and all of us) can recognize a basic blues progression. I'm not there yet, probably never will be completely there, but I'm having a lot of fun working on the "Aimee Nolte" list.

So, if I can put in a substitute chord that makes it easier for me to remember a song, and it fits the overall structure of the song, then I'm going to pursue that path to help me memorize these songs in any key.

Looking forward to your thoughts, opinions, and experiences.

Peace and Happiness my TBer friends!
 
#2
Why is the chord there in the first place? To harmonize with the active melody. It does this by sharing some of the same notes that are in the active melody.

How many notes do we need for harmony? One is usually enough, that's why just roots work. If you maintain the harmony I bet it will also sound good. So we are back to - if it sounds fine it's fine. The last thing to take into account is fish eyes; if the guys are not giving you fish eyes, your fine.
 
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#4
One reason, this probably sounds OK is that both of those chords share 2 common tones.

The b5 of the D chord is Ab and the #5 of the C chord is G# - the same note. They also both contain a C. (talking 7th chords here, of course)

I haven't tried this sub, but I think if you keep that C in the bass for those extra measures, you loose some forward motion and kinda keep the song stuck and it may sound corny. Don't be that bass player. On the other hand, it might be kinda hip to keep that "C" groove going once during the song, possibly during someone's solo. For the most part, I'd stick to the changes as written.

C to D... How hard could it be? You're already playing half the chord anyway.
 
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#5
After re-reading the OP question, I think it's not the playing, the OP is having problems memorizing the chord progression for his gig selections. That is what fake chord sheet music is for. Or a set list like this:

Song #1 Key of G -- G, C, D, G or whatever it happens to be....
Song #2 Key of A -- A, D, E, A

On the floor, or top of your amp, where you can take a quick look.
 
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#6
MalcolmAmos said:
After re-reading the OP question, I think it's not the playing, the OP is having problems memorizing of the chord progression for his gig selections. That is what fake chord sheet music is for. Or a set list like this:

Song #1 Key of G -- G, C, D, G or whatever it happens to be....
Song #2 Key of A -- A, D, E, A

On the floor, or top of your amp, where you can take a quick look.
Click to expand...

If you're gonna play jazz, the sooner you stop relying on paper, the better off you will be. He just needs to memorize it. You have to get this stuff in your ear and in your head, if you plan to be any good at it
 
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#7
Spin Doctor said:
I haven't tried this sub, but I think if you keep that C in the bass for those extra measures, you loose some forward motion and kinda keep the song stuck and it may sound corny. Don't be that bass player.
Click to expand...
strongly agree.
OP: another way to get used to the progression is to play two half-notes per measure (instead of 4 quarter notes). sticking to the root and third, fifth or seventh - which ever fits with the melody.
 
#9
The Ab (or G#) tonality is always what's seemed important to me here. Personally, I don't even focus on the D root until the next chord in the progression where it's a half-measure each of ii & V. ...just how I do it, haven't been fired yet.
 
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#10
Spin Doctor said:
One reason, this probably sounds OK is that both of those chords share 2 common tones.

The b5 of the D chord is Ab and the #5 of the C chord is G# - the same note. They also both contain a C. (talking 7th chords here, of course)
Click to expand...

Not only that, but the melody in that measure has an E natural, so you could think of that chord as a D9(#11) (and in fact, I've seen it written that way in some transcriptions) and then you really have three notes in common between the two chords.
 
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#11
If you're going by most charts I've seen of this song, it's a curious one. The melody note you end up on while the "supposed" D7b5 is going on is a G#. How is a G# a flat 5 of D?? Well, it isn't. It's a #11. I would call the chord a D7add#11 (or D9#11, as noted above) instead. The chart from the Real Book contradicts itself in this way. The melody note should be written as an Ab if the chord is to be D7b5.
 
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#12
Lownote38 said:
If you're going by most charts I've seen of this song, it's a curious one. The melody note you end up on while the "supposed" D7b5 is going on is a G#. How is a G# a flat 5 of D?? Well, it isn't. It's a #11. I would call the chord a D7add#11 (or D9#11, as noted above) instead. The chart from the Real Book contradicts itself in this way. The melody note should be written as an Ab if the chord is to be D7b5.
Click to expand...

True. It's the real book. It's always sucked.
 
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#15
The substituted C# seems fine for repeated play or under solos, but in imagining the melody at the beginning or end of a rendition, it seems weird - you lose the tension of the melody hitting that tri-tone over the D, and then also lose the relaxation that comes with slipping from D-major into D-minor and resolving into the ii-V-I thing...It's like homogenization, or maybe even something worse than that. I've talked with many horn players over the years who don't dig the harmonic channelling forced by going from I to II...but that tension and challenge also help to make the tune the tune!
 
#17
Johnny StingRay said:
Hello TBers!

The first four bars of "Take the A Train" (Key of C Major) are C / / / C / / / D7b5 / / / D7b5 / / /.

I've been working on developing a system to efficiently memorize the chord progressions of twenty jazz standards Aimee Nolte recommends every "jazzer" know by memory and in every key.

When I started with "Take the A Train", for some reason the D7b5 wouldn't stick in my brain, but I realized that C7#5 might be a good substitute for D7b5. For me it was easy to remember C for two measures then C7#5 for two measures.

When I play it with a backing track the substitution sounds OK.

I just wanted to know what all of you knowledgeable "jazzers" on TB thought about it.

In reference to my system of trying to memorize these songs, I'm converting to using the Roman numeral system then grouping related parts of the songs then trying to apply some mnemonic devices I used to teach my students when I taught special needs kids in Detroit. The system is in its infancy, so I still have a lot of bugs to work out to make it efficient for me. It is fun, though! It's forcing me to really get into the theory and chord construction of each song. I'm starting to see a lot of redundancy from one song to the next that makes memorization an easier task. I'm also hearing bits and pieces that work for more than one song.........for example: I'm starting to recognize more complex progressions that are common from one song to another just like I (and all of us) can recognize a basic blues progression. I'm not there yet, probably never will be completely there, but I'm having a lot of fun working on the "Aimee Nolte" list.

So, if I can put in a substitute chord that makes it easier for me to remember a song, and it fits the overall structure of the song, then I'm going to pursue that path to help me memorize these songs in any key.

Looking forward to your thoughts, opinions, and experiences.

Peace and Happiness my TBer friends!
Click to expand...
If you are playing the 4th mode of an A melodic minor scale (A, B, C, D, E, F#, G#, A) when you are thinking Cmaj7#5, then that's fine. Most jazzers would notate the second chord of A Train as D7 #11, which can use the very same scale.

If you like that sound, you ideally would like to get to the point in which you can start that scale on any note and think of each note in the scale as the root of a chord with that modal "flavor".

So, you could think of the second chord, not only as Cmaj7 #5, you could also think of it as Am maj7, B natural minor7 b2, D7 #11, E7 b6, F#m9 b5, and G#7 altered. The 4th mode of the A ascending minor melodic scale fits all of those chords.
 
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#19
Carl Hillman said:
If you are playing the 4th mode of an A melodic minor scale (A, B, C, D, E, F#, G#, A) when you are thinking Cmaj7#5, then that's fine. Most jazzers would notate the second chord of A Train as D7 #11, which can use the very same scale.
Click to expand...

One of the takeaways I get from chord nomenclature -- and admittedly I realize this is not universal, and hence may just be wishful thinking on my part (!) -- is that calling something a dominant 7b5 chord implies a critical omission that calling it a dominant 7#11 doesn't: Against a D7#11 you can play the perfect fifth of the chord-scale (A natural). But if someone explicitly and intentionally writes "D7b5" that tells me that they really don't want to hear an A natural against that chord.

I realize that some folks use the two chord symbols interchangeably...and usually out of ignorance. But if we give the composer/arranger the benefit of the doubt, those two chords do imply a different set of chord-scales, with different avoid notes and resolving tendencies.

fwiw I usually play whole-tone scales against the D7b5 in "Take The A Train". But I think I'll give the fourth mode of A melodic minor a shot next time someone calls the tune.
 
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#20
Bob_Ross said:
One of the takeaways I get from chord nomenclature -- and admittedly I realize this is not universal, and hence may just be wishful thinking on my part (!) -- is that calling something a dominant 7b5 chord implies a critical omission that calling it a dominant 7#11 doesn't: Against a D7#11 you can play the perfect fifth of the chord-scale (A natural). But if someone explicitly and intentionally writes "D7b5" that tells me that they really don't want to hear an A natural against that chord.

I realize that some folks use the two chord symbols interchangeably...and usually out of ignorance. But if we give the composer/arranger the benefit of the doubt, those two chords do imply a different set of chord-scales, with different avoid notes and resolving tendencies.

fwiw I usually play whole-tone scales against the D7b5 in "Take The A Train". But I think I'll give the fourth mode of A melodic minor a shot next time someone calls the tune.
Click to expand...

The melody of "A Train" doesn't, by itself, necessarily imply whole tone. Ellington does harmonize it with a whole tone sound, but when the soloists start playing, they don't always play a #5 during the 3rd and 4th bars of the song.

In jazz, there is harmonic wiggle room. If the improviser's melodic sense is strong enough, he can imply harmonies that aren't inherent in the lead sheet reduction, and it is up to the rhythm section to listen and to follow him.
 
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