Take the A Train D7b5 substitution......

[Bob_Ross]

The melody of "A Train" doesn't, by itself, necessarily imply whole tone.

Well, but the melody for that two bar section (which is only two notes) doesn't not imply whole tone either. It's two notes that happen to be part of a whole tone collection, played over a root note which is also part of that same whole tone collection, and when you add the third and seventh of that chord, yep, they're all still part of that same whole tone collection. So while it's not necessarily "implying" whole tone, it's presenting the improvising musician with a rather well fleshed-out set of hints suggesting that A) whole tone could work for those two bars; and/or B) making something besides whole tone work there would require the musician do some extra lifting: You'd be bringing more to the performance than the composer (may have) intended*, which then puts the onus on that performer to be able to justify their "wiggle room" via appropriately strong and relevant ideas. (Not that there's anything wrong with that, nor am I suggesting that jazz musicians shouldn't be striving for that type of stretch all the time.)

*I guess the real question is, what was Strayhorn thinking when he first wrote the tune?

 

[Carl Hillman]

Well, but the melody for that two bar section (which is only two notes) doesn't not imply whole tone either. It's two notes that happen to be part of a whole tone collection, played over a root note which is also part of that same whole tone collection, and when you add the third and seventh of that chord, yep, they're all still part of that same whole tone collection. So while it's not necessarily "implying" whole tone, it's presenting the improvising musician with a rather well fleshed-out set of hints suggesting that A) whole tone could work for those two bars; and/or B) making something besides whole tone work there would require the musician do some extra lifting: You'd be bringing more to the performance than the composer (may have) intended*, which then puts the onus on that performer to be able to justify their "wiggle room" via appropriately strong and relevant ideas. (Not that there's anything wrong with that, nor am I suggesting that jazz musicians shouldn't be striving for that type of stretch all the time.)

*I guess the real question is, what was Strayhorn thinking when he first wrote the tune?

Here are two different versions of the composer playing his tune:

B naturals at 1:51



D7#11 sound through much of the comping for solos at 54:12



A lot of the other time, especially on the head, it's a whole tone sound, but not always. My point was simply that it can, and is, both a whole tone and 7#11 sound, and that a person playing the tune should play what sounds good and not restrict themselves because of a chord symbol in a chart.

 

[Carl Hillman]

Yes, he does play B natural while impromptu improvising ( )confused: ).

,,,and WHAT?

Could you make your question more specific?

I thought we were discussing "impromptu improvising".

 

[Carl Hillman]

The thread is about that passing chord in measures 3 and 4.

Ah, there's the problem. Despite the back and forth, you and I aren't talking about the same thing at all.

Carry on.

 

[TomB]

*I guess the real question is, what was Strayhorn thinking when he first wrote the tune?

I always imagined he was thinking of a train horn, so I try to support that .

 

[TomB]

Could you, please, elaborate about that Ab/G# tonality?
I could call that chord in measure 3 as Ab aug/G# aug.

I didn't mean to use the slash in the sense of "note in the bass", I meant that I like to include that note in the bass line I play, so consider it to read instead "Ab or G#" - which I'm calling the same "tonality", whatever chord name you choose to use there. I hope that makes sense, with apologies for the slash .

 

[Groove Doctor]

Great advice here....
Invalid Link Removed

Invalid Link Removed

 

[Joebone]

[QUOTE="How did we get to that "substitute C#"?[/QUOTE]

Dyslexia! I mis-read the OP's C7#5 as a c#7...that said, C#dim or A7 could prove fun in those third or fourth bars...pedal C# for two bars? Use the A chord as a launch to Dm7 in bar 5, either for transition, or maybe pedal A on bars 3 and 4? Not advocating these under the head, but thinking of moves to enliven the solos. The more I think of it, the more I can see pedaling C for bars 1 and 2, C# for 3 and 4, then walking the Dm7 in bar 5 as a way to create a nice tension/release dynamic for all.

 

[IamGroot]

Shooting from the hip at Wendys, try a D whole tone ascending scale

Glad you are learning jazz stds via the numbers. Look for the cadences which will make it simpler to memorize.

 

[IamGroot]

Btw, just finished 4 hr country rehearsal which i was mildly allergic to. Needless to say, there werent any flat anythings.

 

[JRA]

OP: if you can't memorize the tune as written, then take cheat sheets to your rehearsals/gigs. trying to cheat that tune, however, with your 'substitution', robs the playdown of the author's intention (in this case 'tension'). D7b5 is easy peasy...and fun! except no substitutes. don't make excuses. take no prisoners. good luck!

 

[IamGroot]

About 25 years ago, I took jazz classes and started going to jam sessions where real books were permitted, then progressed to restaurant jobs with real books, then made the plunge playing with seasoned musicians,no real books allowed, then with a jazz vocalist who called the key as he counted off, no real books. The std repertoire was well over 150 songs, so a system was needed to simplify memorization.

For "Take the A Train":
1 I learn the melody
2 its a major diatonic scale song as opposed to a pentatonic or melodic minor. I can do diatonic walks on autopilot
3 it starts on the I maj 7
4 next bar is that lovely II 7b5 which i would reach for a whole scale in my walk line.
5 the rest of the first bars were the usual IIm7/V7/I
6 the bridge starts with the IV
7 i eventually need to get back to the I..... by the IIm/V7 cadence.
8 i learned by experience the chord to get from the IV to the IIm7 /V7 is the II7
9 repeat the first verse..

So the memory aid is its diatonic with 2/5, starts on ther one, it has a II whole tone and the bridge starts on 4 resolving back to the 1 via 2,/5 with II7-->iim7. Most of the time, this bass walk would be on autopilot.

Simple. Next!
Test yourself...play it in the key F and B

Hope this explains that jazz theory is something you use on the fly to bak up your ears and not something akin to matrix algebra.

 

[IamGroot]

I might add to the above that I havent played A Train in years, so if someone called it, I would use the above memory aid only the first time through. Then I would just play by feeling rather than analyzing every note. The near infinite II/V/I cadence and I/VI/II/V turnaround options should already be a reflex that you dont need to think about so you can order your drink and dinner from the waitress while playing.

 

[Groove Master]

Hello TBers!

The first four bars of "Take the A Train" (Key of C Major) are C / / / C / / / D7b5 / / / D7b5 / / /.

I've been working on developing a system to efficiently memorize the chord progressions of twenty jazz standards Aimee Nolte recommends every "jazzer" know by memory and in every key.

When I started with "Take the A Train", for some reason the D7b5 wouldn't stick in my brain, but I realized that C7#5 might be a good substitute for D7b5. For me it was easy to remember C for two measures then C7#5 for two measures.

When I play it with a backing track the substitution sounds OK.

I just wanted to know what all of you knowledgeable "jazzers" on TB thought about it.


In reference to my system of trying to memorize these songs, I'm converting to using the Roman numeral system then grouping related parts of the songs then trying to apply some mnemonic devices I used to teach my students when I taught special needs kids in Detroit. The system is in its infancy, so I still have a lot of bugs to work out to make it efficient for me. It is fun, though! It's forcing me to really get into the theory and chord construction of each song. I'm starting to see a lot of redundancy from one song to the next that makes memorization an easier task. I'm also hearing bits and pieces that work for more than one song.........for example: I'm starting to recognize more complex progressions that are common from one song to another just like I (and all of us) can recognize a basic blues progression. I'm not there yet, probably never will be completely there, but I'm having a lot of fun working on the "Aimee Nolte" list.

So, if I can put in a substitute chord that makes it easier for me to remember a song, and it fits the overall structure of the song, then I'm going to pursue that path to help me memorize these songs in any key.

Looking forward to your thoughts, opinions, and experiences.

Peace and Happiness my TBer friends!

That 3rd bar is so typical of that tune, that I wouldn't change a thing. It's the signature of the tune. Remember it instead