"Talent" and "being born with it"

[BAG]

Starting young helps too, but natural talent does appear to be a factor.

My two daughters started guitar quite young at around 5 years old.
Both showed a real natural talent for rhythm and dexterity. The eldest in particular picked things up so much quicker than her peers. At that age, and starting from scratch, it is easy to see that some people have more natural talent for some things. Some progress very quickly while many of their peers struggle to grasp the basics.
By 8 years old she was playing Santana solo's note (and bend) perfect.
By 19 she pretty much gave up playing and singing.
She's now 21 and the other week, at her sister's 18th birthday, we were in my studio and she grabbed her guitar to jam. Now, she's barely touched it in nearly two years and yet she launched into songs like she'd never had a break while I, who plays daily, had to have a look at the charts for some songs I hadn't played for a while...... and she's always been like that. She'll learn a song, play it a few times and will remember every lyric and chord change while I work my butt off to try and remember things half as well.

Her sister had to work a bit harder at guitar and voice but can hit a harmony without thinking.

One last example...... my wife decided to learn piano when the girls were around 9 and 11 years old. She worked so hard to play even basic things and was getting frustrated. One day child number one sat down at the piano never having had even one lesson on it, checked out the piece their mum was working on, referred to the lesson sheet showing the notes of the keys and less than an hour later was playing the piece fluently, and with real feeling. Wife gave up piano shortly after that.

 

[C Stone]

Talent is real, potential is real, drive is also real and when they collide there are *sparks* being born with "it" is natural ability.

 

[Hounddog409]

So here is something I have been thinking about.

I got talking to one guy some weeinks ago about instruments and I have mentioned that I play the bass.

His response was something akin to 'i wish I was that talented'.

Being talented...

I don't think having talent is a thing. I think with practice, repetition, studying and playing you can be as skilled at music and playing and instrument as anyone else.

I was watching an interview with Jaco Pastorius and he said that he was born with "it", and you know, maybe he was... But then he said he spent hours upon hours just practicing and playing and studying.

I personally do not believe in talent, it's just work. I would say that I do not have any ability that I have had when I was born, instead I practice and put the hours in and eventually i get better.

The whole concept of being talented and someone telling me that I am talented is lowkey insulting because it implies that I havent worked hard for my ability to play, which I have.

Do you share similar views on this? Or do you believe something else?

Thanks!

Yes, anyone can practice long enough and be able to play an instrument.

BUT, some have more in them. A talent of creativity and musical expression that most dont have. Something that can't be taught or learned.

I can learn how to play a song. I cannot create a song.

There is a reason why Jaco, Geddy, Neil, Ritchie, Bach, Mozart, etc. are special. Their brains are wired different than most in that part that deals with music and creativity.

If this wasn't the case, anyone can practice long enough and create the next Sonata #11.

 

[bass81800]

You will like this book: Talent Is Overrated by Geoff Colvin. He makes the case for many other reasons why people are successful besides being "born with it"

This is a great book and pretty much answers this question. After reading this book, I decided I have talent but I am also someone who really has to work at it. I also think growing up in a home surrounded with music and family members who value musical ability and/or play instruments themselves and support your musical interests immensely helps. I also kind of think that one would not be drawn to music unless they had some talent in the first place.

Well, time to get back to the practice room. Been at it a good part of the day.

 

[40Hz]

Do you share similar views on this? Or do you believe something else?

I’ve generally found it best to just ignore the opinions people have about playing an instrument if they aren’t players themselves.

I think there is such a thing as talent. But I also think talent is fairly commonplace and greatly overrated. Because talent, by itself, seldom achieves anything.

I’m also more interested in results rather than the amount of effort somebody puts into something. I find it equally impressive if someone accomplished something with either minor or major effort. I have nothing against hard work - if it’s necessary. But I don’t see anything particularly noble or admirable in hard work purely for hard work’s sake.

 

[marchone]

The problem with the “talent works hard” idea is that it is based on the assumption that two people will get the same ROI from their practice time. This is very demonstrably not true. To further complicate things, there is Growth Mindsets vs Fixed Mindsets (too lazy to explain) which further determine practice time ROI.

There is also static vs kinetic knowledge and applications. Simply put, some individuals can utilize a seemingly small bit of information and turn it to their advantage much faster than can others.

 

[Tommyc]

There’s a saying in the Olympic village, “you want to win a gold medal, pick your parents carefully.” Tesla, Bach, Mendelssohn, Lang Lang all worked quite hard. Well maybe not Mendelssohn, everything from painting, writing, learning languages, composing and playing came shockingly easily to him. The American classical guitarist Christopher Parkening performed Bach’s Chaconne at the age of 11 after only having taken up the guitar 3 years earlier. He did not work at it for 10,000 hours either. Asked about his practice schedule Parkening said he did not practice scales, arpeggios or any other technical regimen other than the pieces themselves. Geniuses can work but one can’t work at being a genius. Learn to enjoy what you’re trying to do instead of making it a contest. Even geniuses fall prey to vying with others. Despite having written a lot of the greatest music of the 20th century Stravinsky was bothered that Schoenberg, not he, had come up with the 12 tone system.

 

[Swamp_Ronin]

I’m a pretty good player. I almost completely taught myself. I learn pretty quickly. I was born in rural Alabama, and didn’t get the internet until I was like 17. I think, if I had been born in a city with a jazz or gospel scene and a teacher to guide me, I could have become a professional. I’m sure that’s the case with a lot of players. It takes other ingredients and opportunities other than talent to excel.

 

[coyote1]

Ain’t it funny. If something is “god-given” to me, then I’m not interested in the compliment paid to it. Because I really can’t take credit for it! The only things in this world I can take credit for are those which I have had to work hard to do. And as this thread seems more about that than about the audience experience of the result, that’s where I’ll leave it.

 

[JW56789]

I've been fortunate to have been around several born-with-it, supernaturally talented people in my life. They are extremely rare, but they are out there.

Alone at the top of the list was my piano teacher's wife, plucked from the rice fields of Winnie, Texas, and spirited away to Degree programs at Julliard, both in NYC and Paris. Without a doubt, the best I ever heard, but obviously all of that corralled and channeled by her extensive training and education. It was eye-watering and jaw dropping to hear her play from her classical repertoire, almost always a religious experience for me.

Had she not had that training, I don't know if she would have become a great 'ear' player, or done anything with it at all. And best of all she was not driven or haunted by it, she just thought it was something she was 'pretty good' at, and thought the fuss was just not necessary. She could really take it or leave it, it was just so innate and so easily summoned when she wanted to use it.

I've also known people, who while maybe not at that rarified level she was, were very talented. They played to the limit of what came naturally and were never trained, never led to push themselves to learn, and they just sort of fizzled at a certain point, as they couldn't be bothered to work at it even a little.

Talent alone, is not enough. It has to be fired and tempered and worked. There is no substitute.

I think most people drawn to a certain discipline have some level of aptitude, some innate source to draw on where they can successfully work and perform with the right direction and time put in. Then you have the truly gifted in tiny numbers, and those that 'can't carry a tune in a bucket' (. . . . worked with a few of those . . . . ).

And of course, all of this is scrambled by The Big Time Music Business where talent is a nice afterthought, a distant second to 'Will It Sell ?'

 

[marchone]

Questionable, perhaps to a bunch of musicians, but Ringo Starr has been said to never practice during the bands active recording period. That may or may not be true, but the environment his band mates crafted led him to be creative nonetheless.

 

[Pdaddy1978]

Talent is a asset!
You've got to understand that!
Talent is an asset!
And little Albert has that!.....
Ron mael

 

[drumvsbass]

Born talent only makes the initial practice a little easier to get over the hump of. Beyond that it's purely motivation towards excellence. I know lots of players who are not innately musical, but are monstrous players of technical skill who can read music. They practiced. I know lots of players who ARE innately musical and are still playing the same licks they played in high school. They didn't practice.
There is no one that we hold in high regard as a community of musicians that got wickedly good without practice.
Even Jacob Collier must've had some scratching the head moments in front of the piano (it might have been when he was 3 but that is besides the point)

 

[Staccato]

Natural talent and actual experience combined may add up to something.

Let's say a teacher has two students that never meet, and each begins bass lessons from the same teacher/ same curriculum, and spends nearly an hour per day practicing on weekdays.

A student with great natural talent has the potential to make great leaps by comparison. As a teacher, I've experienced this from total beginners.

Some people have to work longer to reach a similar experience level. No experience is like a blank slate.

 

[Fernando Costa]

People are different, have different abilities, to different degrees. Talent exists, it grows if you work. It's also possible to get good results in almost every aspect of life without any talent, but it's harder, it takes a lot more work. Talent + work is the formula that works best. It is also obvious that being talented in a specific activity does not mean being talented in all others.

 

[two fingers]

I have changed my views on talent vs hard work in the last few years.

I have two daughters. They both play volleyball.

My younger daughter is a natural. She was born to he an athlete. She could play from day one. But she doesn't care about volleyball. She is already at "Been there dome that. What's next?"

My.older daughter practices. She's not a natural. But she does reps of every fundamental volleyball move. She crushes her competition. She'll likely play in high school.

"Talent" is a destination. Some are born there. Some work to get there. But when you're there, you're there, regardless of how much sweat it took to get there.

 

[badinage]

Here's my abbreviated theory: There needs to be some combination of innate talent for pitch, rhythm, and physical dexterity to start. When someone discovers these talents while young (and gets some encouragement and hopefully some instruction), then the most important ingredient can be switched on: Passion. Where there's passion in an artform beginning from youth "hard work" isn't really a good description for how it develops from that point. IMO.

 

[muggsy]

I have a lousy ear. I have tried several different ear training programs, and it helps, to a point. But I know my limitations. I also know friends who have no problem playing a song after hearing it once or twice. That is a talent, though I understand not everyone with a great ear is a great player.

Ultimately I think anyone can develop a certain level of proficiency on an instrument or anything else if they put in the work. But what separates the greats from everybody else who puts in the work is talent.

 

[Fun Size Nick]

I have no idea if people are born with talent, and I can definitely see how different kids are inclined towards different things from early on, but I also feel like an above-average number of people who are said to have natural talent at music also grew up with a lot of exposure to it. For example, if you look at the top musical contestants in shows like X factor, <country>'s got talent etc, you often find that a large proportion of them grew up in church (even in a country like Australia where a fairly low % of the population are regular attenders), where they've been hearing some sort of live music on a weekly from age 0, and often have an opportunity to participate in making music with other more experienced musicians from a very young age. A person growing up in that environment is going to have naturally absorbed a lot of music and it's going to seem like it comes more naturally to them. Same probably goes for kids who had above-average musical opportunities in school.

Additionally, whenever I read an interview with a first-call session musician and they're talking about how they got their start, I find it comes up pretty frequently that they'll say something like 'oh yeah, my mum & dad always had records on in the house'.

When it comes down to it, this is how kids learn spoken & written language - their brains are wired to absorb it, especially when they're very young, so it makes sense that they'll absorb musical language as well.

 

[Durham52]

It's often the case that people born with an inate ability, or

I really disagree. Not everyone, and certainly not most people, can excel at a particular task no matter how much work they put in. It’s genetics. You can be great at some things with no effort and suck at some things despite years of hard work. You can get better if you work at it, but that’s not universal.

Nailed it at reply number 2 in this thread. Anything else is either a more verbose version of the same thing, or a denial of the common sense of Gorn's post.