How can you play 40 hours a week? I either have to go to work or study during the day and in the evening I can play a couple of hours but never more than four a day. I would love to play 40 hours a week but that's just impossible
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Talent vs Hard Work
- Thread starter ::::BASSIST::::
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How can you play 40 hours a week? I either have to go to work or study during the day and in the evening I can play a couple of hours but never more than four a day. I would love to play 40 hours a week but that's just impossible
- Dec 13, 1999
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- Chuck Sher publishes my book, WALKING BASSICS:The Fundamentals of Jazz Bass Playing.
Feel free not to. Call me when you get to New York.
If you don't work on anything that's hard or that challenges you or takes some time to really get, you're not getting any deeper. That's fine if that's what you want, but my sense is that scenario is not what's driving veganbass's question.
The amount of "fun" someone has playing is kind of directly related to what they want and how much effort they want to expend. Shooting a few hoops in the driveway is kind of OK for me. It wouldn't have been for Larry Bird. Likewise, if somebody stuck me in a Celtics game, the amount of fun I had would have been seriously curtailed the first time I got between anybody and the basket. What Larry Bird found to be fun is the level that his game could get to if he stood in three point range at about 8 o'clock from the basket practicing left hand jumpshots for half an hour. And then moving over a foot and doing it another half an hour. And then over another foot...
Now if that creates endorphins for you and you're all happy and ****, GREAT. Thats' really good news. It isn't that way for everybody. What IS that way for everybody is that doing the work is the only way to get deeper into the music.
And being on the stand or in teh session, playing with cats on the deepest level I possibly can and making the most cogent and communciative musical statement I can, THAT is fun to me.
I'm a hard work bassist. I used to play 4 hours a day. I'm still practicing a lot and learning as much as i can.
I dont think playing an instrument requires that much of a talent compared to say sports like basketball etc. You just need to practise alot and practice efficiently. victor wooten first picked up bass when he was 5..and im sure he practised more than most of u guys do.
Its not like with singing, your vocal range cannot be improved dramatically even with training etc.
anyways ive played for like 7months and the last 2 bands ive played with gave me some great compliments like 'wow, i cant believe uve only played for only 7months'.
prolly either theyve been playing with incompetent bassists or that my outrageous headbanging moves gave them the illusion that ive been playin for quite awhile
i usually tell them 'maybe thats because i play almost everyday
'
Its not like with singing, your vocal range cannot be improved dramatically even with training etc.
anyways ive played for like 7months and the last 2 bands ive played with gave me some great compliments like 'wow, i cant believe uve only played for only 7months'.
prolly either theyve been playing with incompetent bassists or that my outrageous headbanging moves gave them the illusion that ive been playin for quite awhile
i usually tell them 'maybe thats because i play almost everyday
'
very interesting...I heard a quote years ago and cannot remember who said it, (maybe Count Basie or Duke Ellington). It was something like this;
"it takes about 10 years to learn how to play your instrument, then another 10 years to learn how NOT to play it."
i love that.
Sure it can. Everyone is born with their own absolute maximum range, but an untrained vocalist won't be able to come anywhere near what they could do with training.
I think that there may be some inherent musicality in some people but ultimately in anything there is a lot of work behind it. Be it playing the bass or swinging a golf club, kicking a soccer ball or driving a race car.
I've done the race car bit and there were certainly some talented drivers but more often than not it was lots of driving and training, studying the engineering of the vehicle and engine that got them to the front of the grid. I got to within .5 a second of the quick guys when I stopped and that was a fantastic achievement but the effort (and budget) required to get that .5 second was more than I was prepared to do.
I know I am a better player if I practice between my lessons and really focus and I can also sense in my playing when I have not put in the time. I don't hear changes as well or choose notes as easily when improvising. I can still do the bass 'money position' gigs easily but reaching the goal of being a jazz player/improvisor is going to be a lot of hard work.
There will always be better players but I find them inspiring. If they can do it, I can do it (with a lot of work).
Cheers
I've done the race car bit and there were certainly some talented drivers but more often than not it was lots of driving and training, studying the engineering of the vehicle and engine that got them to the front of the grid. I got to within .5 a second of the quick guys when I stopped and that was a fantastic achievement but the effort (and budget) required to get that .5 second was more than I was prepared to do.
I know I am a better player if I practice between my lessons and really focus and I can also sense in my playing when I have not put in the time. I don't hear changes as well or choose notes as easily when improvising. I can still do the bass 'money position' gigs easily but reaching the goal of being a jazz player/improvisor is going to be a lot of hard work.
There will always be better players but I find them inspiring. If they can do it, I can do it (with a lot of work).
Cheers
of course a person can improve greatly from correct training. but not eveyone can sing like mercury even if they dedicate their whole life to singing. Its not just about the range, its also about the tone and whatnot. Its not like you can just alter the range and tone easily with an instrument
With instruments like bass or guitar its kinda different. Im sure if a kid started playin bass from a young age and practise rigourously and correctly he can prolly get technically as good as jaco, maybe even better. Or maybe worse, but not too far off
of course, im just talking about technique...not including creativity and stuff.
steve vai claims to practise up to 8hours everyday religously and
it really shows...
I hate to say this, but imo there is such a thing as talent 
Sadly, I don't have it. My goddaughter, for instance, can draw with absolutely no training. I'd guess that with training, some (not all) can learn to draw as well. However, with training, she'll be so far past those people that...well, she just has a talent for drawing.
Similarly, I've met people who have a talent for a certain musical instrument. That doesn't mean that they need not practice; that doesn't mean that those people who don't have that talent will never, ever be able to play a musical instrument. However, some people just have this weird ability, and to deny that there is such a thing, or to claim that it is unimportant is, I think, denying reality.
Sadly, I don't have it. My goddaughter, for instance, can draw with absolutely no training. I'd guess that with training, some (not all) can learn to draw as well. However, with training, she'll be so far past those people that...well, she just has a talent for drawing. Similarly, I've met people who have a talent for a certain musical instrument. That doesn't mean that they need not practice; that doesn't mean that those people who don't have that talent will never, ever be able to play a musical instrument. However, some people just have this weird ability, and to deny that there is such a thing, or to claim that it is unimportant is, I think, denying reality.
I dont think playing an instrument requires that much of a talent compared to say sports like basketball etc. You just need to practise alot and practice efficiently. victor wooten first picked up bass when he was 5..and im sure he practised more than most of u guys do.
Its not like with singing, your vocal range cannot be improved dramatically even with training etc.
anyways ive played for like 7months and the last 2 bands ive played with gave me some great compliments like 'wow, i cant believe uve only played for only 7months'.
prolly either theyve been playing with incompetent bassists or that my outrageous headbanging moves gave them the illusion that ive been playin for quite awhile
i usually tell them 'maybe thats because i play almost everyday
Actually you couldn't be more wrong on the singing thing. When I first started I barely had an octave because of approaching singing tottally wrong. After learning how to do it in a relaxed manner I get over 3 octaves in my voice with a much improved quality. I'm 35 and still see improvements every now and then.
Singing IS much like an instrument, in that the more relaxed and fluid you can play the easier and more beautiful it comes out.
If it ain't inside, it ain't coming out. You can work whatever scale, fingering, plucking, tapping, vibrato, upside-down, inside-out technique for however long, but that doesn't mean you have something to say with your instrument.
I'm a hack, the first person to admit that. I really want to play well, but I take such an academic approach to it all. I've opened my ears more lately, and found out that music is really about self expression. I'd decided to focus more on what I'm hearing on the inside, and getting that to come out of my instrument.
But to answer the question, I rehearse with my band 2 hours a week, we play pretty much every other weekend. I practice at home to CDs, books, etc, about 8-10 hours a week. I listen to music all day long (recently started to do this), and I believe that has helped as well.
I'm a hack, the first person to admit that. I really want to play well, but I take such an academic approach to it all. I've opened my ears more lately, and found out that music is really about self expression. I'd decided to focus more on what I'm hearing on the inside, and getting that to come out of my instrument.
But to answer the question, I rehearse with my band 2 hours a week, we play pretty much every other weekend. I practice at home to CDs, books, etc, about 8-10 hours a week. I listen to music all day long (recently started to do this), and I believe that has helped as well.
That's a good point. I know a guitar virtuoso in the Chicogo land area that's a bit of a local celebrity (and a legend in his own mind. He has technical skill that rivals just about any famous guitar player.
But..... whenever I hear him play at a gig or just picking up a guitar at a party it's like he's just reiterating other peoples songs, or going through technical drills..... "now I'm doing rock, not I'm doing country, now I'm doing prog......," just to show everyone his wide range of knowledge.
He is a great player, but you never get the sense that anything just of the moment, or purely emotional will ever come out of his playing.
I agree with you. I've been a bassist for over 18 years now, but I'm not looking to be "great". I have fun playing when I have time and laying down a good groove is all it takes for me to feel like I'm a halfway decent player. Playing bass is not a rat race to see who is better than who. I aint trying to be a master, just a player doing his small part in this universe.
I hate to say this, but imo there is such a thing as talent
Similarly, I've met people who have a talent for a certain musical instrument. That doesn't mean that they need not practice; that doesn't mean that those people who don't have that talent will never, ever be able to play a musical instrument. However, some people just have this weird ability, and to deny that there is such a thing, or to claim that it is unimportant is, I think, denying reality.
+1000
While there is truth to what ppl are saying, I think some ppl say that to make themselves feel better. I also dont agree that its 95% work and 5% talent. Since we dont cant measure talent, how do we know how much is work and how much is talent? I think to some ppl, that percentage could easily be 80-20, or even 70-30. Some ppl have a more creative talent than others, and I believe that the hard work is just the keys that open more locks to release the creativity inside you. So while hard work may get ppl where they want to be, you cant discredit the likelihood that someone with talent can get further with the same effort.
I'm sure every musician has felt like this at one point or another. I wanted to share something that I came across and has served as one of the single most inspiring commentaries on dedication and commitment to music. It comes from Jeff Schmidt, a member on Talkbass, who is not only an amazing musician but a very insightful and thoughtful person as well.
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Basically, it is all about practice. For those of you unfamiliar with Jeff Schmidt's playing, you can see him here:
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You cannot wake up one morning and play something like that on your bass. I remember hearing Victor Wooten talk about staying up for 24 hours straight to learn a Stanley Jordan song on his bass. Steve Bailey talks about having practiced for 12 hours a day at one point in his life.
We are very fortunate to have great and experienced players contribute here on talkbass. I noticed that Ed Fuqua chimed in earlier and offered similar advice as Jeff's and just in case you guys didn't know, here's an article about Ed:
http://www.allaboutjazz.com/php/musician.php?id=1779
It would not hurt to pay attention to what these amazing musicians are saying about practicing and commitment!
Also, for those of us who have demanding jobs and families like myself, I would add that it's not as much the amount of time that you put in but the quality. I get to put in only so much time every day, but I'm constantly growing and learning. Teachers like Carol Kaye and Todd Johnson say that you can make huge leaps in progress in playing just an hour or hour and a half a day. It is important to play consistently but we don't need to practice 4 hours a day in order to become the musicians we'd like to be.
One other brief remark. I spent a year and a half of my life learning Arabic at the Defense Language Institute at the Presidio of Monterey in CA. It is one of the most prestigious language schools in the world. I spent 8 hours a day in the classroom with native speakers of Arabic and after a year and a half, I was as fluent as any westerner who has never lived in the Middle East can be in the language. Basically, they took a total white guy from the suburbs and taught me one of the most difficult languages in the world. I learned so much about just learning in general through that experience. Granted, it was a very intense program, but if they could teach a guy like me another language then anybody can learn music (which is very similar to learning a foreign language IMO!)
Peace.
Invalid Link Removed
Basically, it is all about practice. For those of you unfamiliar with Jeff Schmidt's playing, you can see him here:
Invalid Link Removed
You cannot wake up one morning and play something like that on your bass. I remember hearing Victor Wooten talk about staying up for 24 hours straight to learn a Stanley Jordan song on his bass. Steve Bailey talks about having practiced for 12 hours a day at one point in his life.
We are very fortunate to have great and experienced players contribute here on talkbass. I noticed that Ed Fuqua chimed in earlier and offered similar advice as Jeff's and just in case you guys didn't know, here's an article about Ed:
http://www.allaboutjazz.com/php/musician.php?id=1779
It would not hurt to pay attention to what these amazing musicians are saying about practicing and commitment!
Also, for those of us who have demanding jobs and families like myself, I would add that it's not as much the amount of time that you put in but the quality. I get to put in only so much time every day, but I'm constantly growing and learning. Teachers like Carol Kaye and Todd Johnson say that you can make huge leaps in progress in playing just an hour or hour and a half a day. It is important to play consistently but we don't need to practice 4 hours a day in order to become the musicians we'd like to be.
One other brief remark. I spent a year and a half of my life learning Arabic at the Defense Language Institute at the Presidio of Monterey in CA. It is one of the most prestigious language schools in the world. I spent 8 hours a day in the classroom with native speakers of Arabic and after a year and a half, I was as fluent as any westerner who has never lived in the Middle East can be in the language. Basically, they took a total white guy from the suburbs and taught me one of the most difficult languages in the world. I learned so much about just learning in general through that experience. Granted, it was a very intense program, but if they could teach a guy like me another language then anybody can learn music (which is very similar to learning a foreign language IMO!)
Peace.
I tend to agree... people worry about not having skills in certain areas of bass playing, and think therefore it must mean that anything they play somehow doesn't have the same value as something a virtuoso would play... which is just not true... we can all make a meaningful musical statement regardless of where we are in our development
there are obviously tons of situations where you NEED to bring certain abilities to the table, but there's nothing to stop you doing something with the skills you have... just because you couldn't sit in with some NYC jazz cats and keep up doesn't mean what you have to express isn't worth playing
it's like being ashamed of your own voice or vocabulary
I think some things can be improved upon to a point through hard work, but some people are just naturally better at other stuff... i.e. I believe my timing will never be as accurate as some people, even if I practice my ass off for another 20 years... I just don't think I have the kind of brain motor control whatever that allows people to play metronomically super tight... no matter how much I've practiced, whatever my brain concieves doesn't always accurately get transferred to my fingers... and I don't think any amount of hard work will fix that... ultimately I wish i'd spent less time trying to emulate a machine and more time exploring & featuring what's basically a consequence of being human
just work with the tools you have and make the most fantastic music you can
jeff schmidt
no longer red carded, but my butt is still sore.
Actually, I did wake up that morning and play that on my bass.
But I traded over a year of nights and weekends for it.
BTW - thanks for your kind words and for spreading the word about putting in the time & effort.
Absolutely, for me the great thing about talkbass is the access we have to some fabulous musicians. I think we do them a disservice if we assume that they have some magical advantage over the rest of us.
The best advice I ever got from a more experienced bass player was to 'quit trying to learn songs and licks and work on your basic technique'. I've found that any problems I've encountered - whether they relate to timing, dexterity, quality of tone etc - all come back to minute details of technique. No mystery, no secrets, just focus and application.
Whenever I hit a 'plateau' in terms of playing, the only way for me to get beyond it is to go back and work on the absolute basics, which (being a hack player), sometimes I do and sometimes I don't. But I know enough to know what I'd need to do if I really, really wanted it bad enough
Good thread. My contribution to it is to say I've been blessed with a lot of natural talent, but if I don't practice for a while, I kind of suck.
+1 ... great short essay if you follow the link.
I learned to speak fluent German earlier in my life. I've been using that experience as a template for learning to play bass now that I've finally started making music again in middle age. I agree that learning to play a musical instrument has a lot of parallels to learning a foreign language. Funny thing: I've been told I have a talent for learning languages. It only ever seemed like hard work to me, studying vocabulary, grammar, pronunciation.
