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Tapewounds causing electrical hum

#81
96tbird said:
Have you ever used tapes?
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Yes, absolutely, and I know exactly what the OP is talking about. It's frustrating. As a matter of fact, I have a set of D'Addario tapes on my completely unshielded Fender MiM fretless jazz right now. So I have a complete repro of the problem the OP describes. As soon as I touch the bridge, a signifcant portion of the noise disappears. :)

If I have time this weekend, I'll do some shielding work on my Jazz, and I'll do some before/after recording and see if my shielding job works as advertised. Deal?
 
#86
I have a shielded bass that hums at church when I don't touch the strings. I have no problem with this at home. The hum is not all that loud at church, I'm not sure the congregation can hear it. But I can. ;) If I need to raise my hands to clap, I do, no one will hear it over the clapping. If I need to drink a beer, well, I make it a point to not drink beer in church. :D In fact the only place I ever drink beer is in Germany and I've only been there a few times. Good BEER!

So what's the moral here? I too have a MSEE and I too appreciate the value of shielding. I've done enough shielding work professionally to know how difficult it is to do a good job. I am sure the shielding on my bass could be improved, it is just the Fender factory "paint job".The degree of shielding needed depends on circumstances. The shielding I have is fine at home, inadequate at church. Unless you have a complete, seamless shield you are not going to suppress all noise. Obviously any shield that allows the pickups to still pickup the string vibrations is going to let some magnetic noise, at least, through so a perfect shield on a bass is impossible. Given the impossibility of a perfect shield there may be circumstances where the best in class shielding practices here at TB will be inadequate to solve the hum problem in a given venue.

Now maybe the OP's problem, and mine, could be solved by better shielding. I am not going to argue against that. It is a lot of work, which is why I have not gotten around to it yet, and I think everyone should admit that it could ultimately be inadequate. You don't know until you try. And those of you who have tried and found it to work do not know that it will work in every circumstance until you have been everywhere and tried it in every circumstance. Keeping yourself connected to the bass ground is an option. You can in fact use a conductive antistatic bracelet if that look works for you! It would let you clap, drink your horrible non-German beer, etc. Or you could put grounding plates on your bass somewhere (an aluminum foil strip up the back of the neck?) where you can keep in contact with them easily while you play. And then just turn down the volume when you are doing something else. I do that in church all the time for other reasons. By all means, shield your bass better, but if that doesn't work for you, or while you are waiting to get it done, you can "touch the strings" even if they are tapewound.

Ken
 
#88
Troph said:
Ken, I agree with just about everything you said except for the beer part. Who only drinks beer in Germany? Crazy. :)
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Well, I was raised by Baptists so I don't drink all that much beer anyway. :D But I will partake when business/social circumstances demand and I can honestly say that German beer is the only beer I've ever had that made me understand why people drink the stuff!

Ken
 
#89
Troph said:
Yep, Roger is correct in describing what is happening, but I think he is wrong in both his solution (avoid all coated strings) and his expectation that this is normal for reducing noise. For many instruments and many pickup configurations, you don't need to limit your string choices... you just need to add shielding.

I'm sure there are some instruments out there with pickups that are so noisy that you just can't shield the cavities enough to prevent this noise... And I'm also sure that many players just don't want to deal with adding shielding or modding their bass at all. If you're in one of these two camps, I suppose limiting your string choices is an acceptable option.

I personally wouldn't tolerate such an instrument, myself...
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I have been a pioneer in shielding work since the late 70's. Our instruments could not be better shielded than they are. We still get noise problems with coated strings under severe conditions that working musicians encounter on a regular basis.
 
#90
khutch said:
Well, I was raised by Baptists so I don't drink all that much beer anyway. :D But I will partake when business/social circumstances demand and I can honestly say that German beer is the only beer I've ever had that made me understand why people drink the stuff!

Ken
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I may lose my Canadian citizenship for saying this but here goes: The US is home to some of the greatest beers in the world - they just don't enjoy the popularity of your lesser brands (e.g. Bud).

On topic, if I understand correctly, the buzzing issue with coated strings is a result of:
- static charge builds up on a player's body
- string coating prevents this charge from being sent to ground
- the static then enters the signal path via the pickups

Has anyone tried wiping the pickups with an anti-static compound? e.g. computer screen wipes or bounce

Would grounding the pole pieces help?
 
#91
Hawkbone said:
On topic, if I understand correctly, the buzzing issue with coated strings is a result of:
- static charge builds up on a player's body
- string coating prevents this charge from being sent to ground
- the static then enters the signal path via the pickups

Has anyone tried wiping the pickups with an anti-static compound? e.g. computer screen wipes or bounce

Would grounding the pole pieces help?
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It has nothing to do with static. It has everything to do with AC line noise. The pole pieces on Sadowsky pickups are grounded. That does not solve the problem.

roger
 
#92
Mr. Sadowsky, thanks for a voice of reason in this thread. I can only hope that some posters here take heed to your words. Such a simple problem muddied by the believers that shielding will provide a 100% noiseless instrument regardless of the many variables we might throw in the mix; the main one being 60hz AC electricity. After all you are a long time builder and player. Not many can say that. TB is so cool because people like you are here to speak the truth.
 
#93
96tbird said:
Mr. Sadowsky, thanks for a voice of reason in this thread. I can only hope that some posters here take heed to your words. Such a simple problem muddied by the believers that shielding will provide a 100% noiseless instrument regardless of the many variables we might throw in the mix; the main one being 60hz AC electricity. After all you are a long time builder and player. Not many can say that. TB is so cool because people like you are here to speak the truth.
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Thank you! I have nothing invested in my posts other than to share my experience of 41 years of building and repairing.

Roger
 
#94
Sadowsky said:
I have been a pioneer in shielding work since the late 70's. Our instruments could not be better shielded than they are. We still get noise problems with coated strings under severe conditions that working musicians encounter on a regular basis.
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Hi Roger, I'm sure that when noise issues are escalated to you, they are very serious. In such extremely noisy environments, I agree that cavity shielding may be insufficient, and player grounding may indeed be called for.

But it would seem to me that, in such cases, a grounding strap would be a far superior solution. It is the de-facto electrical industry standard for grounding personnel in both dangerous and sensitive environments. The advantages are numerous: the connection is solid and stable, it can be connected only when necessary, it frees up the player to stop touching the strings at all times, and last but not least it allows you to use coated or non-conductive strings. The disadvantage is figuring out where to put it, but they can literally be worn anywhere on the body, and a grounding wire can be run under clothing to the input jack on the instrument.

Anyway, back to the facts in this thread:
  • The OP is playing a stock Fender, not a fully shielded Sadowsky. I am not alone in noting that stock Fender shielding is minimal at best.
  • The OP is likely not playing in an extremely noisy environment

As such, don't you think it's worth a shot to try things like shielding and grounding the ball ends first, rather than telling him to ditch his string choice and keep his hands on his instrument at all times?

Anyway, thanks for listening!
 
#95
I should also point out that I'm not a fan of being grounded unless really necessary, due to the added safety risks. I'm obviously not saying that folks playing conductive strings have a death wish (I play them all the time).

But, when you're part of a ground path, you're at a much higher electrocution risk than someone just hanging out on stage in rubber-soled shoes. ;)
 
#97
Troph said:
I should also point out that I'm not a fan of being grounded unless really necessary, due to the added safety risks. I'm obviously not saying that folks playing conductive strings have a death wish (I play them all the time).

But, when you're part of a ground path, you're at a much higher electrocution risk than someone just hanging out on stage in rubber-soled shoes. ;)
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No one is going to get electrocuted. They may get a shock.
I have never encountered anyone who has been hurt unless they were singing and touching the microphone at the same time they were playing their electric guitar.

Roger
 
#98
Troph said:
But it would seem to me that, in such cases, a grounding strap would be a far superior solution. It is the de-facto electrical industry standard for grounding personnel in both dangerous and sensitive environments. The advantages are numerous: the connection is solid and stable, it can be connected only when necessary, it frees up the player to stop touching the strings at all times, and last but not least it allows you to use coated or non-conductive strings. The disadvantage is figuring out where to put it, but they can literally be worn anywhere on the body, and a grounding wire can be run under clothing to the input jack on the instrument.

Anyway, back to the facts in this thread:
  • The OP is playing a stock Fender, not a fully shielded Sadowsky. I am not alone in noting that stock Fender shielding is minimal at best.
  • The OP is likely not playing in an extremely noisy environment

As such, don't you think it's worth a shot to try things like shielding and grounding the ball ends first, rather than telling him to ditch his string choice and keep his hands on his instrument at all times?

Anyway, thanks for listening!
Click to expand...

A ground strap is very old school.....it was used before guys like me started shielding instruments 40 years ago. But it does work. I would attach the player end to a metal c**k ring to maintain constant contact. :D

Grounding the ball ends would not contribute to any hum reduction unless the player touches the ground wire or some conductive part where it is connected.

Regarding the OP, I would recommend he bring his bass to a competent tech for shielding. If he still has problems after that, I would ditch the coated strings.

Roger
 
#99
Sadowsky said:
It has nothing to do with static. It has everything to do with AC line noise. The pole pieces on Sadowsky pickups are grounded. That does not solve the problem.

roger
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ok, looks like I was wrong then! I'm curious though - how does AC line noise (which is fed to the amplifier only) become (more of) an issue with un-grounded strings? Not saying I don't believe you, I'm just having trouble visualizing it.

Edit:Never mind, found some answers on Audere's website. [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Sadowsky grounding ring idea = hilarious!
 

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