TC Electronic BG250 Club (Part 2)

[EdO.]

No details, but I have always been led to believe that all BG250's have 4 Ohms total speaker impedance.

Correct, 4 ohm. Got that directly from TEC. I contacted them probably a couple years ago asking about modding to add an output for an extension cab. Said can't do it because it's already operating at 4 ohms.

My biz partner bought an Ampeg flip top a few months back... Shipped it back.... Not good...not good at all....

My current bands practice space has one, 500-something head with a 210 fliptop cab. I'm totally unimpressed.

 

[Papuzzo]

My BG250-115 Mk 1 is about 4 years old, has done plenty of gigs and travelled many miles over rough roads. No problems whatsoever.

I hear as many bad things about Ampeg stuff as TC stuff...

I've heard horror stories about Ampeg gear and GK gear as well and came to the conclusion that all gear has at least a small failure ratio. At that point I eliminated failure rate/reliability from my buying decision and focused on sound, versatility, convenience and cost, and the BG250-115 came out on top for me.

At this point, even if TCE has a higher failure rate than normal, their combo gear is cheap enough to buy backup. I am still thinking about buying a second and an ABY switcher. 2 BG250s are about the same price as a head and 2x10 cab. Or, I could save the 359 bucks and invest it in beer.....

 

[tzohn]

Before I got my BG250 I had a brand new Ampeg BA115 v2 which I had to return because of a really annoying echo-like distortion. We even unboxed 2 other brand new Ampegs at the shop and all of them had the same issue.
Technical manager agreed that it was unacceptable and offered me to get whatever else I'd like. The only 15" combo available was the BG250 and with the remaining €150 I added an MXR 10-band EQ. Way more
tonal options with this setup. Also free Toneprint effects. I have listened to other 15 inch combos that sound better than the BGs but at least double the price.

 

[Alex Masters]

I may be the shortest duration member of the BG250 club ever...

I scored a second hand BG250-115MK2 in part-ex for my Eden EC10 practice amp for a knock-down price. The exterior tolex was a bit scratched and .marked but the amp and control panel were like new, and the amp seemed to be in good order.

I lugged it home, plugged it in and after about 20 seconds playing the power cut - no lights, no noise, no nothing.

I've taken the amp apart and checked the fuses etc. It seems that the power supply has gone down.

Unfortunately without test gear I think she's done, so back to the shop to hand it back and get my old amp back!. Luckily there is a two month warranty. I was very surprised at the extremely minimal heatsinking on the amp module - even with class d efficiency it is tiny and all cooling is passive, so I wouldn't be surprised if temperatures were quite high.

What a shame - I really wanted to like this amp, but like a lot of class d stuff with switch mode PSUs, they aren't a viable out of warranty repair.

I'll speak to the UK repair agents and see what they say, but it's going to be a new PSU or amp, both of which probably cost too many £££ for it to be worthwhile.

 

[Alex Masters]

I returned it to the store today, and accidentally won another on e**y that I was casually bidding for. This one has been repaired by one of the UK service centres, so either it will crap out again shortly or it has already had it's oops moment, and will be reliable!.

Update - I picked it up today, and the buyer was a nice chap who has obviously looked after this unit well. I noticed that it had a repair sticker on the back from real electronics, and I called them to see if I could find out what was done when it was with them. Apparently it was in under warranty for repair work to the PSU, and they replaced the NTC resistor which had blown, and a couple of PSU caps. Hopefully it should be reliable now.. we'll see!.

First impressions are quite positive - it's surprisingly neutral via the line input, and the tweeter definitely does something. The bass driver has some thickening in the midrange, but overall the sound is good from the power amp and cabinet. We'll see what the tones are like through the preamp, but so far at least, I like it!.

 

[Alex Masters]

I know this is an extremely old (long-living) and long thread, but since people are still posting to I thought I would get your thoughts.
I have been reverse engineering the TonePrints from the app, comparing the prints for the pedals and the bass amps. I have figured out that the communication from the app to the amp are Sysex messages, so Midi over USB. I have been comparing the Sysex messages of a ton of prints and also intercepted the communication between the app and the amp and was able to trick it into thinking it is talking to a pedal and therefore could work with the editor to see what portion of the Sysex was modified when the different settings were tweaked in the editor.
My plans from this are 1. create those missing TonePrints that were not made available to the bass amps and 2. eventually create a TonePrint editor for us bass amp users. ;-)
To give you an idea what I've done. Here is an example using the Ida Nielsen NosePrint Chorus effect that is available for the Corona Chorus, but not for the bass amps.

Here's the Sysex message from the original NosePrint and my modified version that installs successfully on my BG250:

Ida Nielsen NosePrint Chorus - Original from TonePrint desktop app
f0 00 20 1f 00 68 02 00 00 00 07 45 4e 6f 73 00 65 50 72 69 6e 74 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 0f 00 00 00 7f 7f 7f 1c 78 7f 7f 7f 1c 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 64 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 06 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 00 28 00 00 00 00 00 01 00 00 55 00 00 02 4d 00 00 00 01 2b 00 00 02 00 2f 00 00 00 3c 00 00 00 00 64 00 00 00 00 00 11 00 36 63 00 00 36 63 08 00 00 36 63 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 3c 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 00 04 00 00 00 00 0a 00 00 00 2b 00 00 00 00 52 00 00 00 73 00 1f 00 00 0f 7f 7f 7f 7f 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 64 00 00 00 64 00 00 00 00 64 00 00 00 64 00 0f 00 00 64 7f 7f 7f 7f 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 00 05 00 00 00 04 17 00 00 01 77 00 00 22 02 54 00 00 09 4c 00 10 00 13 0a 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 00 06 00 00 00 04 1d 00 00 00 49 00 00 02 01 2e 00 00 01 0f 00 10 00 01 72 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 00 07 00 00 00 00 28 00 00 01 2c 00 00 02 02 38 00 00 02 15 00 1f 00 02 54 7f 7f 7f 7f 78 7f 7f 7f 7f 00 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 01 00 0f 00 00 01 7f 7f 7f 7f 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 00 08 00 00 00 00 03 00 00 00 22 00 00 00 00 28 00 00 00 2e 00 00 00 00 3c f7

Ida Nielsen NosePrint Chorus - Successful install to bass amp
f0 00 20 1F 00 7C 02 07 05 01 00 02 7F 7F 7F 40 1C 00 00 00 64 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 14 00 01 10 00 00 00 00 06 00 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 00 28 00 00 00 00 00 00 01 00 55 00 00 02 4d 00 00 00 01 2b 00 00 02 2f 00 00 00 00 3c 00 00 00 00 64 00 00 00 00 00 00 11 36 63 00 00 36 63 08 00 00 36 63 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 3c 00 00 00 00 00 0E 02 26 00 00 00 00 00 05 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 04 00 00 00 3C 00 7F 7F 7F 6E 00 00 3E 00 7F 7F 7F 7F 77 00 1F 00 01 7F 7F 7F 7F 7A 0F 00 00 02 7F 7F 7F 7F 44 7D 00 00 03 7F 00 00 00 00 00 0E 02 28 00 00 00 00 00 08 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 02 00 00 00 3C 00 7F 7F 7F 1C 00 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 00 00 01 00 00 00 f7

Here a short description of what you see here:

f0 00 20 1F 00 7C = Device identification. 00 20 1F just says it's TC Electronic, the next 00 is s SysEx bit and the 7C (or 68 in the original) is the actual device identifier. 7C is for bass amps (although the SysEx data in the TonePrint app have 6C, which is apparently swapped out when it communicates over USB) and 68 is the Corona Chorus pedal.

02 = SysEx command/action. 02 is the action for installing TonePrints. The responses to this from the amp have 12 as an action bit in them.

The purple section I will call the "preamble" because it seems identical for all similar effect types. I say "seems" because they do have minor differences, but they don't seem to effect the TonePrint install.

The red section is where the actual TonePrint settings are that I could also monitor as changing when I tweaked the controls in the editor.

The rest is similar to the "preamble" as it is identical to similar effects for the most part. I suspect the slight changes in the "preamble" and the tail of the message are some of those settings that TC mention they set in the background. I remember it being said in the youtube video for the editor that they set some things in the background and don't reveal them to the user as they could nuke their amp. So, I will leave my fingers from those areas for now. Although I could imagine the settings section could be expanded a little, because I never got around to tweaking the area of the editor where the pedal knobs are associated with certain settings (I only tweaked the top area of the within the editor). Those probably control some additional settings. I will dig into that at a later time.

If you look at my red sections above you will see they are almost identical. The modifications I had to make were to add a 00 after the first configuration bit (06 - which is the modulation type) and before the next available setting. This shifts all settings one bit out. Now, there were three more positions where TC either moved a bit to the left or to the right. After moving them back into the position they would be expected in the bass amp settings, this TonePrint would install and sounded like the sound presented on youtube.

Now I will work on converting existing (but not for bass amps available) TonePrint for pedals over to bass amp versions. and then look at coding an editor for this.

I'm a bit late to the party, but did you get anywhere with this?

Good work decoding the sysex stream, and getting some of the other patches to work with the BG series. I'm sure they are using common DSP and libraries between the pedals and the BG amps - I suspect that a lot of the device specific stuff is down to different interfacing and knob/switch layouts. A lot of the patches probably won't be that useful without control over modulation depth/rate etc, which is why it would be useful to have a working editor!. You have two toneprint controls, so it would be great if they were assignable to different effect functions through some kind of knob mapping.

 

[soulman969]

Bought a BG250-115 2 days ago. I went to a local music store to pick up a BH250 and K210 cab but they had this combo sitting front and center and I decided to give it a spin. Glad I did! I also got it at a really good price, €359 in Italy. Considering 22% of that cost is the outragious Italian sales tax, I have to admit this amp is a serious bargain for how good it sounds.

It seems like it can get pretty loud although I havn't tried it with the band yet. I was wondering if I ever need more amp volume if it would just be better to get another amp and ABY them? Or instead of an AB stitcher, maybe put a Zoom B3n in front of two? Who knows, maybe I will never need that amount of volume...

Anyway, let's hear some updates from those using this combo for some time now. How are they holding up? Regrets? Everyone still happy end users?

It's a very loud amp for it's size and wattage. I've never run mine above 50%-60% full out and far less at times. But I do use a Zoom B3 for the amp emulations and a parametric EQ and Pre-Amp so I can always bump up lower output picks if needed. Its a pretty handy addition to this rig. I also can't imagine actually needing a second one since in a larger venue or outdoors the FOH PA would suffice and the amp becomes my stage monitor.

Mine is a version 1 with the Tube Drive built in. I use a Spectra Comp in the Tone Print slot. I've had it going on 4 years now I believe. It's taken some very long road trips in the back of a truck, survived those, and been trouble free. Overall I like the weight and it's compact size and I wouldn't hesitate to suggest it to someone looking for a mid powered combo amp. In fact I have. Many times. So yeah, I've been very pleased with mine.

 

[Jughead6]

It's a very loud amp for it's size and wattage. I've never run mine above 50%-60% full out and far less at times. But I do use a Zoom B3 for the amp emulations and a parametric EQ and Pre-Amp so I can always bump up lower output picks if needed. Its a pretty handy addition to this rig. I also can't imagine actually needing a second one since in a larger venue or outdoors the FOH PA would suffice and the amp becomes my stage monitor.

Mine is a version 1 with the Tube Drive built in. I use a Spectra Comp in the Tone Print slot. I've had it going in 4 years now I believe. It's taken some very long road trips in the back of a truck, survived those, and been trouble free. Overall I like the weight and it's compact size and I wouldn't hesitate to suggest it to someone looking for a mid powered combo amp. In fact I have. Many times. So yeah, I've been very pleased with mine.

I have a very similar experience. I've have used my BG250-115 Mk1 alone for small/medium venues and have also used the XLR out to a PA when we needed (or wanted) to get very loud.

These combo's have been around for 4-5 years now, so I wonder if TC Electronic is developing the next version, or working on a new replacement...(anyone know?).

 

[Papuzzo]

I'm glad to hear the positive comments. So far I am getting along just fine with mine and am happy with my purchase. I was convinced to get a head with 2 2x10 cabs but now I understand that would have been overkill, especially since my musical interests are taking me away from rock and more into funk, soul and blues.

 

[Alex Masters]

I'm using mine with a Boss GT-1B to get more control over the effects than you can get with the TonePrints . Some of them sound good, but the lack of control and editting is a problem. I use the spectracomp as I think it's very effective. Preamps, drive and everything else I need I can do with the Boss

 

[JIO]

Just bought this 1-12 (used in VGC) and so far I'm impressed by a number of things about it. I got it expressly for keys and will hear it tomorrow night (w/keys) at our rehearsal. Until then, it's been fun trying various basses through it. Haven't dealt with the TonePrint downloads yet - but (clean) tone-wise I really like it. It sounds very neutral (in a good way) letting each basses actual tone express itself cleanly and clearly. Also like the mute switch - so easy. The tuner is ok, but with keys it'll just be blinking lights anyway. And finally, I like the light weight - a definite plus. So far - so good.

 

[JIO]

For anyone interested, I fabricated a very cheap and effective cover for my newly purchased amp (above) - it's been a rainy week here in the Bay Area and I wanted to protect it from getting wet transporting it tonight. Looked on-line and found available covers for around $60 and up so made a trip to my local Ace Hardware store for black plastic bags. They sell 3mill contractor grade bags that fit this amp perfectly. ($10 for 12 so less than $1 @) That, scissors and duct-tape and Bob's your uncle! I also fitted corrugated cardboard over the controls and taped it from the inside to the bag. Bring on the rain!

 

[Alex Masters]

For anyone interested, I fabricated a very cheap and effective cover for my newly purchased amp (above) - it's been a rainy week here in the Bay Area and I wanted to protect it from getting wet transporting it tonight. Looked on-line and found available covers for around $60 and up so made a trip to my local Ace Hardware store for black plastic bags. They sell 3mill contractor grade bags that fit this amp perfectly. ($10 for 12 so less than $1 @) That, scissors and duct-tape and Bob's your uncle! I also fitted corrugated cardboard over the controls and taped it from the inside to the bag. Bring on the rain!

View attachment 2959174

View attachment 2959183

Top man. I love a low cost DIY hack!

 

[CMartin]

Correct, 4 ohm. Got that directly from TEC. I contacted them probably a couple years ago asking about modding to add an output for an extension cab. Said can't do it because it's already operating at 4 ohms.


My current bands practice space has one, 500-something head with a 210 fliptop cab. I'm totally unimpressed.

You can mod this with an extension cab. You would have to add a 4ohm resistor in series to internal cab, making it 8ohm where you can add another 8ohm cab in parallel to the internal cab+resistor. I also thought of doing this, haven't needed it yet. But, if you are mod'ing anyways, adding a resistor should be easy. I would wire it so that the additional 4ohm resistor is only active when the jack for the external cab actually has something attached. You wouldn't want to decrease your output when no external cab is attached by making it 8ohm in general, when the amp supports 4ohm output. Or you could add a switch that activates the addition 4ohm resistor and the external jack at the same time (you don't want the internal cab to remain 4ohm when you attaché an external cab.

It would take some electronic "expertise", but it is possible. It's natural for the vendor to say you can't mod their amp. They want you to purchase new stuff from them. I experienced that when asking them about the editor for the bass amp toneprint. They don't want to supply an editor because the bass amps support multiple effects and they want you to buy their effect pedals. That's why they crippled the editor for bass amps and say the format is different. Well, the format is only made different artificially. It is actually the same format, just slightly modified to prevent the editor from working. I am going to dig into this some more when I have some time. I already created some of the missing bass toneprint a based on my original analysis of the toneprint data. I still want to create an editor for the bass toneprint. But, it is a lot of work.

 

[Alex Masters]

I like your idea of a loading resistor switched by inserting another cab in the speaker socket. Might be tempted to give that one a try.

Building a new editor from scratch is going to be too much like hard work. I think the DSP in the BG250 is going to be much like that in the TonePrint pedals, but switch and knob functionality is pedal specific.

Without being able to edit the effects, their usefulness is limited , but the specracomp is good and will get some use. I can use by Boss Gt-B1 for general effects and preamp type stuff.

Cheers,
Alex

 

[CMartin]

I'm a bit late to the party, but did you get anywhere with this?

Good work decoding the sysex stream, and getting some of the other patches to work with the BG series. I'm sure they are using common DSP and libraries between the pedals and the BG amps - I suspect that a lot of the device specific stuff is down to different interfacing and knob/switch layouts. A lot of the patches probably won't be that useful without control over modulation depth/rate etc, which is why it would be useful to have a working editor!. You have two toneprint controls, so it would be great if they were assignable to different effect functions through some kind of knob mapping.

I still want to tackle this toneprint editor for bass amps. Just haven't had a lot of time lately.
Unfortunately, you can't tell which toneprint is active based on the SysEx response you receive. So, making some selector in an app that could select a specific slot isn't possible (or I just haven't figured it out yet). I would also like to activate both like the model I could. But, I haven't figured out if that is orogrammatically possible or if they have hard-codes it in the amp.
I will concentrate on editing the effects first and then maybe we can have a look at other more difficult options. Since most use the tube drive and spectracomp effects most of the time in the bass amps, I will concentrate on those effects first. Maybe release an editor for limited effects initially and expand on it where the demand is.

 

[ppiluk]

I am picking up a used BG250-210 later today and I couldn't be more excited. I have had my eye on the 112 since my pre bass days and when the 210 came up on Kijiji and for a good price I yelled so loud I woke my kids...which was fine because it's a school day anyways.

The timing is perfect because I recently joined a jazz band who playes in veterans clubs and old age homes and often my DI based system wouldn't be sufficient for some of these venues.

I can't wait to join this club later today!

 

[ppiluk]

I just picked my BG250-210 up and am applying for membership...here is a pic of my new beast!

 

[BassChap]

Welcome to the club! Enjoy the beast.

 

[ppiluk]

Welcome to the club! Enjoy the beast.

thank you!