TecAmp amplification club.....is there such a thing yet

[MKA]

Speaker size does not define how much bass a speaker can put out. That is the part of 'it doesn't matter'. For example, the Acme 10's put out more low end than any 18" driver loaded cab back in the day.

Mixing cabs with different drivers is a different issue. First, mixing two different cabs, regardless of driver size, can be a mess since even cabs loaded with the same size drivers but made by different manufacturers can have massively different tuning and massively different frequency response. It isn't that it can't sound good, it often does. However, it is total guess work. Adding a second identical cab always gives predictable results... similar tone as the single cab, louder, and a bit more low end due to coupling.

So, two different issues. The first (that some of us are addressing here) is that you don't need to limit your cab decision based on driver size for different tone goals. Many 410's are voiced deeper, for example, than may 115 cabs, and may 212 cabs now have all the punch and brightness of many 410 cabs, etc., etc.

The second is mixing different driver sizes when they are all running full range. Again, different power handling, difference SPL, etc, etc, can result in some strange things happening (or not). The most important point is there is NO advantage to doing that, and the unpredictability of the result means it is kind of guess work.

Again, with this cabs design, I'm sure it sounds good. The question is if you can't get there in a smaller box, and also the idea of switching half the woofers off in a big box makes little sense, period. It is one thing to leave a one cab at home for smaller gigs. It is another to bring a bit cab, and then switch the drivers off.

Multiple tweeters.... I would think much of the same could be achieved with the nice switchable crossover they already have in place, and basic EQ on the amp.

Again, most know that I'm not one of the guys who says 'if it doesn't look perfect on paper, it can't sound good'. There are very few things on the market that don't sound pretty good these days. However, what I do know is that many guys will look at this and think 'wow, 12's for lows and 10's for punch... cool.' I know for sure that is 'not cool' in the real world, and you can get there in a simpler, smaller and cheaper way.

Kind of IMO, but quite frankly, it just 'is'.

So if I understood you correctly, you are actually saying that it's NOT a bad idea to mix speaker sizes "per se", but that it IS a bad idea to mix speakers that don't mix well? That, if I may add, is just common sense.

 

[phillybass101]

I played a gig with a 2x10 Horizon bass cab (sealed) and a 2x10 Peavey bass cab and I sounded good. I guess I was just lucky.

 

[Bmorefoozler]

So if I understood you correctly, you are actually saying that it's NOT a bad idea to mix speaker sizes "per se", but that it IS a bad idea to mix speakers that don't mix well? That, if I may add, is just common sense.

He's saying don't mix driver sizes that play in the same pass band. It's quite acceptable to run a largish diameter speaker(8-15") that is designed to run from 40-1000hz roughly and then cross that speaker over with a smaller diameter(4-8") mid-range driver that runs from the crossover up.

It's not scientifically correct to run the same content through different drivers.
It CAN work in some situations, but is generally unpredictable over a wide range of uses.

Look at a nice set of home speakers. Big subwoofer drivers, medium mid-range drivers and small tweeters. Nothing steps on each other's toes and each is designed to work efficeintly in the range it's used.

 

[KJung]

So if I understood you correctly, you are actually saying that it's NOT a bad idea to mix speaker sizes "per se", but that it IS a bad idea to mix speakers that don't mix well? That, if I may add, is just common sense.

Not really. Basically, the results are unpredictable. Again, once you are in a crossover situation, it doesn't matter. Most large PA's have different sized drivers driven by cost efficiencey, and even spreading of the different frequencies across a venue. Everything is crossed over.

For a cab designer who knows what he is doing, and even one who doesn't, it is entirely possible to build a box with different sizes of non crossed over drivers sizes that sounds OK (or even great).

For the typical schmo like you and me who has a single cab and need to be louder with more low end, it is a sure bet that adding a second identical cab will get you there with no surprises, no phasing issues, no 'differential efficiency'issues that can make one cab louder than the other, etc., etc., etc. Of course, you can also luck out.

Again, as most know, I am not a 'it has to follow every rule of optimum speaker design to work or sound good' guy. However, I've learned so much from the EE's here, and have spent many, many hours (since for some strange reason, bass amplification is my main 'hobby' and interest outside of music and performing) that I've been able to try a lot of combinations, brands, etc.

My only points are these (and am only trying to help:

1) Don't think you need a certain sized driver to get a certain tone. This is absolutely incorrect.

2) Related to the above, don't dismiss an entire class of cabs (10's, 15's, 12's, whatever) because you think you need 'the punch of 10's', or the 'deep lows of 15's'. That doesn't really hold any more.

3) While the technical issues involved in speaker design are real (comb filtering, beaming, phasing, mid bumps due to cramming too many drivers in too small of a box, etc.) they should not be taking as 'there is only one way to do things'. Amplifying an organic 'real time' instrument like the bass guitar is a bit different than purely reproducing programmed music, or providing sound reproduction with front of house. So, some strange speaker designs that seem wrong in a lot of technical ways (like the cab we are talking about) can sound absolutely killer. The key is, does it sound killer 'despite of itself' and can you get there cheaper, lighter, and possibly better applying a bit of science. There is no yes/no answer.

Again, I'm only a very interested amateur in all of this, but TB is a very good classroom if you are willing to learn a bit and break down some of the myths that don't really apply any more.

 

[KJung]

I played a gig with a 2x10 Horizon bass cab (sealed) and a 2x10 Peavey bass cab and I sounded good. I guess I was just lucky.

Again, if you have no interest in learning about any of this stuff, it is fine. The point is, playing out of two identical Horizons might have sounded much better or actually gotten louder with the same wattage, etc. In addition , if you are pumping hard and one cab has a significantly lower power handing capability, or much poorer mechanical capability than the other, you can actually do some damage when you start to crank.

+1 A good player will always sound 'good'. I use awful provided backline sometimes, and I sound like me. However, all this stuff is 'real' and if you know a little more about it, it might keep you from making a buying decision that costs you more money than you need to spend, or more size and weight than you need to deal with, and/or, in some cases, really crappy sound, especially if you consider what a rig sounds like when you aren't standing right in front of it

 

[Brad Johnson]

So why is Baer making a 2x12 with 2 6 in drivers in the same cab? Why is the Rev (Glasstone) working on a SlapG config with a 2x10 and 12' cab? IMO opinion it's what the market wants or demands rather than some intellectual conversation or discussion about driver efficiency etc. I currently play through an Eden 2x12 cab. Still my ears tell me I like 10's better for slapping. Just my opinion. In terms of what I can buy with my own money I'm leaning towards a Glasstone 2x10 stack. Still lightweight, modular and I'll have my beloved 10's and still be with Glasstone. To me the 12' fans are starting to sound like the FF guys. LOL!!!! I have not yet decided completely against a Lil G and again funds will dictate what I purchase in the end. A 2x10 Slap G stack will cost me around $1200. Like everyone says, we all have one.

Market demands really didn't come into play with Sammie's cabs... who was demanding something like the Lil G? Nobody.


The Slap G two cab setup is something he's trying because that's what he loves to do... experiment. I just spoke with him and he has something he wants to show me next week and won't even hint at what it is. That's fun for both of us. It's about having an open mind. Your ears can tell you a lot more if you go in with them open vs. assuming you know what will happen. It's the exact opposite of how Sammie and many others like myself approach things.
I'm not a 12" fan (I like what I check out that works) and it's telling that you want to lump people in a group. I like what sounds good and from experience I know I can still be surprised. It'll be interesting to see what you think when you finally hear a Lil G in real life. Recordings don't even come close to telling the story.

You asked why does Marcus use tens in your email. I'm pretty sure that being an SWR endorser and using what they offer has something to do with it. Ya think?

 

[Brad Johnson]

I played a gig with a 2x10 Horizon bass cab (sealed) and a 2x10 Peavey bass cab and I sounded good. I guess I was just lucky.

If you really think that proves something about tens, no. I would've love to hear you play through my first gen Trace Elliot 410.

 

[Brad Johnson]

So if I understood you correctly, you are actually saying that it's NOT a bad idea to mix speaker sizes "per se", but that it IS a bad idea to mix speakers that don't mix well? That, if I may add, is just common sense.

You'd be surprised. Many think finding "odd" cabs that match well is like finding a 5 leaf clover... and any evidence to the contrary is not welcomed.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Again, if you have no interest in learning about any of this stuff, it is fine. The point is, playing out of two identical Horizons might have sounded much better or actually gotten louder with the same wattage, etc. In addition , if you are pumping hard and one cab has a significantly lower power handing capability, or much poorer mechanical capability than the other, you can actually do some damage when you start to crank.

+1 A good player will always sound 'good'. I use awful provided backline sometimes, and I sound like me. However, all this stuff is 'real' and if you know a little more about it, it might keep you from making a buying decision that costs you more money than you need to spend, or more size and weight than you need to deal with, and/or, in some cases, really crappy sound, especially if you consider what a rig sounds like when you aren't standing right in front of it

I think the point was that they had tens. I could be mistaken.

We still disagree on the mixed cabs thing.

 

[4-string]

So, any news from Tecamp @ namm on the amp head front? I sold my Ashdown head today, and will get a replacement soon.

I'm leaning towards the Puma 900 now, but if there are any newly released gems out I'd like to know.

 

[KJung]

So, any news from Tecamp @ namm on the amp head front? I sold my Ashdown head today, and will get a replacement soon.

I'm leaning towards the Puma 900 now, but if there are any newly released gems out I'd like to know.

The Puma's are relatively fresh. The only new thing I heard from NAMM was that they reconfigured their neo cabs to ceramic (due to neo cost) and kept the weight down by replacing the metal grills with cloth.

 

[KJung]

I think the point was that they had tens. I could be mistaken.

We still disagree on the mixed cabs thing.

+1 in that I don't think we disagree. It can work fine and sound great in some combinations, especially if the two cabs have significant 'holes' in their response... like the famous Epifani UL112/UL110 stack. One can has lows and little midrange, the other has midrange and few lows

However, again, it is a crapshoot, versus the 100% predictable results you get when buying a second identical cab to increase the output of a single cab you are using. 100% of the time it will sound good (i.e., almost the same as the single original cab), and will basically give you a bit more low end and a lot more volume.

Of course, if you DON'T like the original cab much (i.e., not enough lows, etc.), then you can definitely hunt and peck and try to find some other cab that 'fixes that issue'. I always took the tack of finding a different cab in that case, but I understand many are on a strict budget and don't have that luxury.

 

[MKA]

Not really. Basically, the results are unpredictable. Again, once you are in a crossover situation, it doesn't matter. Most large PA's have different sized drivers driven by cost efficiencey, and even spreading of the different frequencies across a venue. Everything is crossed over.

For a cab designer who knows what he is doing, and even one who doesn't, it is entirely possible to build a box with different sizes of non crossed over drivers sizes that sounds OK (or even great).

For the typical schmo like you and me who has a single cab and need to be louder with more low end, it is a sure bet that adding a second identical cab will get you there with no surprises, no phasing issues, no 'differential efficiency'issues that can make one cab louder than the other, etc., etc., etc. Of course, you can also luck out.

Again, as most know, I am not a 'it has to follow every rule of optimum speaker design to work or sound good' guy. However, I've learned so much from the EE's here, and have spent many, many hours (since for some strange reason, bass amplification is my main 'hobby' and interest outside of music and performing) that I've been able to try a lot of combinations, brands, etc.

My only points are these (and am only trying to help:

1) Don't think you need a certain sized driver to get a certain tone. This is absolutely incorrect.

2) Related to the above, don't dismiss an entire class of cabs (10's, 15's, 12's, whatever) because you think you need 'the punch of 10's', or the 'deep lows of 15's'. That doesn't really hold any more.

3) While the technical issues involved in speaker design are real (comb filtering, beaming, phasing, mid bumps due to cramming too many drivers in too small of a box, etc.) they should not be taking as 'there is only one way to do things'. Amplifying an organic 'real time' instrument like the bass guitar is a bit different than purely reproducing programmed music, or providing sound reproduction with front of house. So, some strange speaker designs that seem wrong in a lot of technical ways (like the cab we are talking about) can sound absolutely killer. The key is, does it sound killer 'despite of itself' and can you get there cheaper, lighter, and possibly better applying a bit of science. There is no yes/no answer.

Again, I'm only a very interested amateur in all of this, but TB is a very good classroom if you are willing to learn a bit and break down some of the myths that don't really apply any more.

Still, all I'm reading here is that a cab with a good desing is a good cab and vice versa. As to why you think that mixing tens and twelves is a bad idea, (if speaker size doesn't matter and) if the cab is properly designed, I don't understand. I find it funny that people are bashing a cab with new desing when they haven't even seen or HEARD it.

 

[KJung]

Still, all I'm reading here is that a cab with a good desing is a good cab and vice versa. As to why you think that mixing tens and twelves is a bad idea, (if speaker size doesn't matter and) if the cab is properly designed, I don't understand. I find it funny that people are bashing a cab with new desing when they haven't even seen or HEARD it.

sigh... OK, I give up. It is true that you aren't understanding.

No big deal. And again, I don't see anyone here bashing the cab, just pointing out that it is quite strange in many different ways, and some of the capabilities seem, well, strange.

 

[Bmorefoozler]

Still, all I'm reading here is that a cab with a good desing is a good cab and vice versa. As to why you think that mixing tens and twelves is a bad idea, (if speaker size doesn't matter and) if the cab is properly designed, I don't understand. I find it funny that people are bashing a cab with new desing when they haven't even seen or HEARD it.

just one obvious reason it is not the best choice of a design is:

That the 12's are almost certainly louder per watt, AND have greater power handling.

Think about it this way, if you try and extract max volume from the cab, can you even hear the 10's stressing? Even if you can, you have 2 12's that aren't very close to running out of steam yet. People that buy this cab should be careful as it will be prone to blowing 10 inch drivers.

The other "problems" are more theorettical, and may not even apply to you if you ALWAYS have FOH support.

 

[Brad Johnson]

just one obvious reason it is not the best choice of a design is:

That the 12's are almost certainly louder per watt, AND have greater power handling.

Think about it this way, if you try and extract max volume from the cab, can you even hear the 10's stressing? Even if you can, you have 2 12's that aren't very close to running out of steam yet. People that buy this cab should be careful as it will be prone to blowing 10 inch drivers.

The other "problems" are more theorettical, and may not even apply to you if you ALWAYS have FOH support.

This as far as I can tell is ALL theoretical. No offense. So none of these are really obvious unless you have something factual to base it on. I haven't seen any details to the contrary. That's the trap so many people fall into here on TB.

The twelves don't have to be louder per watt... that's assuming they're similar versions of the ten.

The twelves could be designed to stress before the tens.

Prone to blowing tens based on what?

Twelves can't run out of steam before tens?

For all we know this cab could have six chambers, high xmax tens, ceramic twelves, a five way crossover, composite baffles and so on. My point is that we don't know.

 

[Saluki]

Lot of cab talk here, but I just think this
sounds really good. Are these the new 12" cabs with the Puma 900?

 

[KJung]

Lot of cab talk here, but I just think this
sounds really good. Are these the new 12" cabs with the Puma 900?

Looks like s112's from the size, can't tell. Yeah, the Puma500/900 with an s212 or M212 is NICE! Probably a bit heavier than the ones I had due to the ceramic drivers. The cloth grill will help a bit. The neo's were so stupid lightweight that these should still be plenty lightweight.

 

[Brad Johnson]

+1 in that I don't think we disagree. It can work fine and sound great in some combinations, especially if the two cabs have significant 'holes' in their response... like the famous Epifani UL112/UL110 stack. One can has lows and little midrange, the other has midrange and few lows

However, again, it is a crapshoot, versus the 100% predictable results you get when buying a second identical cab to increase the output of a single cab you are using. 100% of the time it will sound good (i.e., almost the same as the single original cab), and will basically give you a bit more low end and a lot more volume.

Of course, if you DON'T like the original cab much (i.e., not enough lows, etc.), then you can definitely hunt and peck and try to find some other cab that 'fixes that issue'. I always took the tack of finding a different cab in that case, but I understand many are on a strict budget and don't have that luxury.

The inherent problem is that many times people simply choose to ignore the real life factors that go into choosing amplification. Choosing gear is not a linear equation, where hard and fast rules genuinely apply. But again and again people act that way. My thinking dictates that if I have a rule and it has a ton of exceptions, it ain't much of a rule.


As far as 100% predictability, I'm not going to touch that.

Each musician potentially has their own personal "optimum". We don't all want the same things so that's why I laugh when people talk about how bad SVT cabs are and things of that sort. It's silly if what an SVT does is exactly what you desire... then, for you the cab is could genuinely be perfect. Much better than other alledgely better cabs according to "conventional wisdom".

We all don't use our gear in the exact same way for the exact same purpose... but people act like we do. How that never occurs to many of them is a real mystery.

Take that a little farther... let's say I have mixed cabs that overlap in a frequency range, accentuating it and that range happens to be where the bass I use is deficient. It could be a match made in heaven, that outperforms identical cabs IF THAT'S WHAT I WANT. And IME trying out different combinations has neither been difficult, frustrating nor expensive.

I honestly don't get why so many have a problem with this (not talking about you personally) and even recommend that people don't experiment and instead just follow the rules.

 

[KJung]

The inherent problem is that many times people simply choose to ignore the real life factors that go into choosing amplification. Choosing gear is not a linear equation, where hard and fast rules genuinely apply. But again and again people act that way. My thinking dictates that if I have a rule and it has a ton of exceptions, it ain't much of a rule.


As far as 100% predictability, I'm not going to touch that.

Each musician potentially has their own personal "optimum". We don't all want the same things so that's why I laugh when people talk about how bad SVT cabs are and things of that sort. It's silly if what an SVT does is exactly what you desire... then, for you the cab is could genuinely be perfect. Much better than other alledgely better cabs according to "conventional wisdom".

We all don't use our gear in the exact same way for the exact same purpose... but people act like we do. How that never occurs to many of them is a real mystery.

Take that a little farther... let's say I have mixed cabs that overlap in a frequency range, accentuating it and that range happens to be where the bass I use is deficient. It could be a match made in heaven, that outperforms identical cabs IF THAT'S WHAT I WANT. And IME trying out different combinations has neither been difficult, frustrating nor expensive.

I honestly don't get why so many have a problem with this (not talking about you personally) and even recommend that people don't experiment and instead just follow the rules.

+1 All the way. As you know, I'm typically on the other side of this discussion

Again, I let my general interest in all this stuff kind of run away from the cab being talked about in general. I apologize to the thread for that. I am a HUGE fan of the TecAmp stuff in general, and gigged a Tecamp rig for a couple of years. I was even a field tester on the Puma500 revision

However, it IS kind of intersting to understand some of these issues, and at least somewhat helpful for buyers to understand some of these issues. It greatly help me understand whan I'm hearing, and also helped explain why some cabs sound like they do.

And like you, I like many cabs that are quite far away from the 'technical absolutes' talked about on this site.