Tech 21 Club

[GwenOnBass]

Yeah, it was either in that thread you noted, or some other where Tech 21 told me the same.

Nothing against the online reps... and not necessarily that I inherently trust manuals either, but yeah - as @Zbysek noted, the limiting function is a hallmark of the SansAmp tech - one of the many reasons why they work so well for recording. Just re-posting the same thing formatting a little better from the VTDI manual:

"3) When you push VT Bass DI to saturation, you get enhanced harmonics, just as you would with an overdriven tube amplifier. Depending on the setting, the unique circuitry limits transient peaks for an even meter reading, so that outboard compressors or limiters may not be necessary"

Also:
View attachment 3234948
(As an aside, that setting kind of makes me wonder where the limiter is in the circuit - if it falls after the post-SansAmp circuit EQ, I wonder if it's affected by the EQ levels - as in, higher EQ across the board, would cause the stronger signal to compress more).

Anyways, regardless of what the manual says, my ears say there is compression... but those aren't always quite so easy for others to trust. My eyes on the other hand... whether its more from the limiter, or from the distortion, if you look at the waveform of a signal coming out of the VTDI, it is VERY easy to see the limiter/compression in action. I remember at one point I tossed a WAV over to my drummer to pop it into the mix in logic - his comment to me was "damn, that's a wall". It sure was.

I probably won't have a chance to record anything tonight as I'll be rehearsing, but given that the VTDI has a parallel out, it's super easy to tell: record in stereo, with one channel being affected, and the other unaffected and compare. All comparisons of the waveforms I've ever seen support the notion that sometimes significant compression is taking place depending on settings.

Which begs the question: why is there a compressor in the Bass Fly Rig?

(?? to have access to compression if the SansAmp circuit is bypassed ??)

 

[Kro]

Which begs the question: why is there a compressor in the Bass Fly Rig?

My experience with my VTDI is that the feeling of compression is settings dependent, and can vary quite a bit depending on how it's run. There is after all a good difference between just limiting transients and compression as an effect - but still, I think that at some settings my VTDI can get squishy.

I'd bet that the Fly Rig having a separate compressor offers a good bit more flexibility in that department. While I noted I personally wouldn't need more than what my VTDI gives me the way I run it, I could see others appreciating the independent approach.

 

[Arthur U. Poon]

I currently own 4 Tech21 pedals
1. VT Bass Deluxe.
2. Q\Strip.
3. Leeds Character.
4 Sansamp Para Driver

I like them all but I obviously don't use them all at the same time.

View attachment 3234843

Killer collection! I found this YouTube clip of a Leeds pedal being used to cop Entwistle's "My Generation" tone. I really like it's sound and I regret not buying a Leeds pedal when they were still in production.

 

[Kro]

I probably won't have a chance to record anything tonight as I'll be rehearsing, but given that the VTDI has a parallel out, it's super easy to tell: record in stereo, with one channel being affected, and the other unaffected and compare. All comparisons of the waveforms I've ever seen support the notion that sometimes significant compression is taking place depending on settings.

Time to put my money where my mouth is. Was messing around a little tonight and decided to do a quick recording using the methodology I outlined above. Stereo recording, with channel 1 being the unaffected parallel out, and channel 2 being the affected SansAmp out with a Character of 9:00 and Drive at 12:00, a setting that personally feels pretty compressed to me.

See for yourself:

 

[GwenOnBass]

A great effort and far beyond my experience to interpret properly. I see spikes in 1 that don't appear in 2. Does that mean a limiter effect or compression effect? Both? And reasonably certain none of my stored settings use drive higher than 11:00, so likely we're not hearing the same thing.

 

[Kro]

A great effort and far beyond my experience to interpret properly. I see spikes in 1 that don't appear in 2. Does that mean a limiter effect or compression effect? Both? And reasonably certain none of my stored settings use drive higher than 11:00, so likely we're not hearing the same thing.

That's just where I had it set, but drive of 11 will do similar but less, and 10 less still, and so on - but the effect is still there.

It's probably just a combination of the limiter and distortion (which are both types of compression, and likely two sides of the same coin as far as the pedal is concerned), but the primary point is that the spongy feeling of compression is, at least to me, unmistakable. At some point maybe I'll give it a go with lower drive levels to see just how it diminishes, but I know that a Drive of 11:00 with a Character of 9:00 looks very similar, and should become even more compressed with higher Character levels.

FWIW while it certainly isn't clean, I personally really don't consider the Character 9/Drive 12 combination to be all that distorted. It's the same Character/Drive setting that I use in the second option in post #58 just as a reference.

 

[Kro]

As you've probably deduced, I did end up getting my VTDI back from Tech 21 last week. The mod they performed works exactly as advertised, with there no longer being any way to disengage the pedal. Power = on.

It's been fun messing around with it outside of its normal place secured in the back of my rack, but with tomorrow's show coming up, it's about time I got to work putting everything back together:

Whoops! That was my other project for the night! I meant the one where I zip-tied my always-on VTDI back into my rack! I really hate the thought of having any of my personal gear on the floor, and the rack offers protection to not only the unit itself, but also for my settings. Some might find it odd that I decide to stow my VTDI like this, but for my needs it makes perfect sense.

Friendly PSA for all you rack users - quick release rack thumb screws are awesome!

Here we can see the empty space, both on the power strip and under my amp, that my VTDI typically inhabits:

Lining it up before sticking it to the child-proofing outlet plugs covered in Velcro. Zip-ties would probably be enough on their own, but what's a little over-engineering when it comes to peace of mind? The last thing I'd want is it shifting around.

Aaand... zip-tied. As you can see, it's pretty secure:

Quick settings check, and ready to slide back in...

One last check to make sure everything is working as planned (see the red light through the crack), and my VTDI is ready to head up to the Lower East Side where it'll be paired with a killer FOH system, and per my advance, two backline Aguilar DB 410s just for me. Rock and roll!

 

[dagrev]

Whoops! That was my other project for the night! I meant the one where I zip-tied my always-on VTDI back into my rack!
View attachment 3242810

Matching Zip-ties? Not have any duct tape around (the handyman's secret weapon)?

Actually looks like a great plan! Should work and sound good no matter what you play through.

 

[Basshappi]

Just acquired a VT Bass Deluxe, my first piece of Tech21 gear. Too early yet for me to offer any opinions.

 

[Kro]

Matching Zip-ties? Not have any duct tape around (the handyman's secret weapon)?

Actually looks like a great plan! Should work and sound good no matter what you play through.

Worked ok last night, this is a shot of my rack with VTDI inside on top of those backline DB 410s I noted earlier. Promising rig, right?

As far as it sounding good no matter what it's played through... and also as far as fixing things with tape is concerned... funny you should mention that, as I have a story!

I walk into the venue just as the first act is sound checking, and the bass is farting like crazy. Awesome. Sound guy pops the grills off of each cab, and it turns out the bottom cab has a tear through the upper right cone - ripped bad enough that I could see it from where I was standing on the floor. His solution? Tape it with gaffers tape.

I walked up to him and good-naturedly ask if just running the top cab might be a better solution, but he wasn't interested - and was so sensitive about his backline that he wouldn't even let me hook my own amp up to them when my time came, as that's what my plan was.

Honestly, and this I'm sure will surprise no one, but even though the tape stopped the worst of the farting, those cabs didn't really sound all that awesome. If one was pushed to tear, odds are the others had some damage as well. All said, I could hear myself just well enough, but as you might expect the tone wasn't anything to write home about. Hopefully it sounded better up front via the DI feed, which I have reason to believe is the case as bass for the other acts all sounded decent front of house.

Oh well, another night, another gig. Should have better luck next time!

 

[Kro]

Just acquired a VT Bass Deluxe, my first piece of Tech21 gear. Too early yet for me to offer any opinions.

Congrats! Do report back when you're able.

Since it's your first piece of Tech 21 kit, just a quick note that the controls IMO are very sensitive, and it might seem a bit finicky at first (at least it did for me). I personally believe that it has a slightly steeper learning curve than most preamps, but the results are well worth it!

 

[dagrev]

Worked ok last night, this is a shot of my rack with VTDI inside on top of those backline DB 410s I noted earlier. Promising rig, right?

As far as it sounding good no matter what it's played through... and also as far as fixing things with tape is concerned... funny you should mention that, as I have a story!

I walk into the venue just as the first act is sound checking, and the bass is farting like crazy. Awesome. Sound guy pops the grills off of each cab, and it turns out the bottom cab has a tear through the upper right cone - ripped bad enough that I could see it from where I was standing on the floor. His solution? Tape it with gaffers tape.

I walked up to him and good-naturedly ask if just running the top cab might be a better solution, but he wasn't interested - and was so sensitive about his backline that he wouldn't even let me hook my own amp up to them when my time came, as that's what my plan was.

Honestly, and this I'm sure will surprise no one, but even though the tape stopped the worst of the farting, those cabs didn't really sound all that awesome. If one was pushed to tear, odds are the others had some damage as well. All said, I could hear myself just well enough, but as you might expect the tone wasn't anything to write home about. Hopefully it sounded better up front via the DI feed, which I have reason to believe is the case as bass for the other acts all sounded decent front of house.

Oh well, another night, another gig. Should have better luck next time!

Interesting rig!

I have yet to find a SS amp that the VT can't improve.

Clearly you just overthought this. Your solution was simply unnecessary.....given there was sufficient tape on hand! I've seen this tape trick before as well, but never had to play through such an ingenious resolution.

 

[Btbp]

So I weighed the VT and BDDI, had them both for a few weeks and in the end returned the VT.
I really liked the VT but can't see spending $209 x 2 on similar preamps. I can however see buying one some time down the road.

The VT was easier to get a good sound, the BDDI seems more versatile and less grungy although it can get that way if needed, whereas the VT is that with more grunge range. These are inadequate descriptions though.

Tough decision, both great pedals.

 

[bigtone23]

My first Tech21 is on the way. Ordered a Bass Fly Rig. I'm in an 80s cover band and my TC BH250 usually does the trick, but the Fly Rig has everything I use the TC for, and then some. Plus, it's tiny and all contained in an enclosure the size of the Switch 3 pedal I use to control the TC.
Looking forward to getting it and putting it through the paces!

 

[el murdoque]

Did anyone here switch from a Programmable BDDI to a BDDI v2 and had problems getting the same sound out of the new one? Because I am. On the Programmable BDDI I have drive at 10:30, treble and presence at noon, bass at 1 o'clock and blend set to 100% wet.
When I copy those settings to the v2 and leave the mids at noon, it sounds different. Any clues how the mids work on the old unit without the mids pot?

 

[Al Kraft]

Did anyone here switch from a Programmable BDDI to a BDDI v2 and had problems getting the same sound out of the new one? Because I am. On the Programmable BDDI I have drive at 10:30, treble and presence at noon, bass at 1 o'clock and blend set to 100% wet.
When I copy those settings to the v2 and leave the mids at noon, it sounds different. Any clues how the mids work on the old unit without the mids pot?

I saw a post some years back where Tech 21 said that the normal degree of variation in the pots they use make it impossible to count on the exact same settings yielding the exact same voicing even on identical products. These are analog tone circuits and while I think the BDDI stores the setting you dial in digitally, the variation in the circuit will not yield consistent results box to box.

 

[el murdoque]

Ok, that is understandable. What I never got was how the mids work on the units without a mid pot. I think I read somewhere that they are not simply flat, but get boosted or cut, depending on how the bass and treble are set.

 

[Kro]

When I copy those settings to the v2 and leave the mids at noon, it sounds different. Any clues how the mids work on the old unit without the mids pot?

Hearing a post like that makes me itch to run the two through a spectrum analyzer and see what’s actually going on as far as frequency response and harmonic distortion are concerned. In theory, if the settings combination is in them to make them sound exactly the same, that’d be the objective way to accomplish it.

I’d recommend the software to others who are interested, but I admit that the ~$100 price tag for the version I use is steep unless you have additional uses for the program – or are just insatiably curious as I am.

Hopefully with a little bit of A/B testing you’d be able to get the new BDDI to where you’d want it using just your ears – or just find a new tone you like!

 

[Al Kraft]

Ok, that is understandable. What I never got was how the mids work on the units without a mid pot. I think I read somewhere that they are not simply flat, but get boosted or cut, depending on how the bass and treble are set.

I may do a poor job explaining this, but if you run a BDDI with no blend, you essentially have a flat boost box with bass and treble EQ available. As you turn the blend up you introduce the Sans Amp voicing circuit mixed with your original signal. At 100% blend, you are only getting the Sans Amp voicing circuit which is designed with mid scoop. As the Sans Amp circuitry is introduced the Drive and Presence controls now become active as well.

If you want more mids, you can turn down the bass and treble and increase the Level control (straight gain) to make-up the volume loss. This will reduce the amount of bass and treble frequencies while passing more mids and basically giving you a tone that is more mid focused/present. The other trick is to back off on the blend and allow more of your own bass signal to be present. Assuming you haven't dialed in a mid scoop on your bass or some other pedal, you will get a higher mid content. So you reduce the blend to about 50%, turn down bass and treble controls, use the Level control to recover volume as needed and you get more mids in your sound.

The Drive and Presence controls shape the character of the Sans Amp Circuit effect. While Presence will enhance some higher frequency content, it seems a bit more complex than that and in frequency plots I've seen actually alters the harmonics as well. The Drive control pretty much determines the degree of overdrive you're getting (just like in an amp) and along with the Presence control let's you shape the kind of amp/cab emulation you're getting.

One last point that is essential to keep in mind is that the Sans Amp was designed to be exactly that - no amp! When used to go direct to a mixer it works really well and the lack of mids deal is not at all extreme, it is simply part of the tone and sounds like a mic'ed cab. When folks started using it as a pedal in front of an amp and cab (that frequently produce a mid scooped tone), they got a double mid scoop effect. This is where you need to be creative with your EQ controls and recognize that doubling "a good thing", isn't always a great thing!

I hope that helps...the Tech 21 guys would have probably explained it better.

 

[Al Kraft]

Hearing a post like that makes me itch to run the two through a spectrum analyzer and see what’s actually going on as far as frequency response and harmonic distortion are concerned. In theory, if the settings combination is in them to make them sound exactly the same, that’d be the objective way to accomplish it.

I’d recommend the software to others who are interested, but I admit that the ~$100 price tag for the version I use is steep unless you have additional uses for the program – or are just insatiably curious as I am.

Hopefully with a little bit of A/B testing you’d be able to get the new BDDI to where you’d want it using just your ears – or just find a new tone you like!

I think Tech 21 will tell you that you can recreate tones you like from box to box, but your eyes will only help get you in the ballpark, your ears need to dial it in.