The 410 + 115 rule?

[Razman]

So, after having read this entire thread (and getting a science based headache) I have a question about my choices in gear.

I recently purchased two of those new Acoustic BN cabs with the Neodymium speakers - the BN210 and the BN115. Here is the spec page:

Invalid Link Removed

I am using the cabs with a Markbass LMT800. Where does this all stand in the land of physics?

Thanks!!

I think Tom Bowlus said once that "if it sounds good, it is good." Physics just makes for good reading on TB ('good' being a subjective term I'll admit - ymmv.)

However, IMHO and IME and any other abbreviated acronym, THIS is the best unmatched cab stack for metal:

 

[Chef]

If the driver impedances and wiring scheme are chosen correctly, there doesn't have to be a power imbalance between drivers. But the basic idea probably originated in the marketing dept.

this is exactly right.
they can, in fact, be power and impedance matched.
they can, in fact, be designed and tuned to work together, or, compliment each other.

mostly, that is not the case though.

 

[Chef]

I think Tom Bowlus said once that "if it sounds good, it is good." Physics just makes for good reading on TB ('good' being a subjective term I'll admit - ymmv.)

Tom may have said it, and, he would have been correct.
Duke Ellington originally said that, if I remember correctly.

 

[JJR58]

Stealing this for a signature! ROFL![/QUOTE

Don't tell anyone but my last gig was with a Mesa D800 running into a Hartke 4.5(410) and a 215XL Hartke all running at 2ohms and it slayed.
It didn't look good on paper but it sure melted faces!
I once again will say don't care what it is as long as it sounds good to you.
I would rock a empty box of Frootloops with a pickle in the bottom if it sounded good, but I'm sure someone on here will argue about what type of pickle sounds best in that setup.

the argument won't be about the pickle, it'll be about why you're not using a carrot instead.

 

[B-string]

So, after having read this entire thread (and getting a science based headache) I have a question about my choices in gear.

I recently purchased two of those new Acoustic BN cabs with the Neodymium speakers - the BN210 and the BN115. Here is the spec page:

Invalid Link Removed

I am using the cabs with a Markbass LMT800. Where does this all stand in the land of physics?

Thanks!!

There are no real "specs" even in the manual for those cabs. It also appears they have employed "Behringer watts" for the power input ratings. Use your ears, if the cabs sound like they are hurting turn down.

 

[alembicguy]

the argument won't be about the pickle, it'll be about why you're not using a carrot instead.

True

 

[Downunderwonder]

So, after having read this entire thread (and getting a science based headache) I have a question about my choices in gear.

I recently purchased two of those new Acoustic BN cabs with the Neodymium speakers - the BN210 and the BN115. Here is the spec page:

Invalid Link Removed

I am using the cabs with a Markbass LMT800. Where does this all stand in the land of physics?

Thanks!!

if you stack the 210 tall on the 15 you get some more height and a better projection of your mids, particularly if you can avoid standing directly in front of the stack yourself. One time jamming with this guest sax player, all my tone evaporated suddenly, turn around and there's wonderboy getting the full bass message, 'dude!'. 5 minutes later same again.

I digress. Like they said. If it sounds good....
But I have biamped my own mixed stack for a noticeable improvement in sound at the expense of volume capabilities. That's a crossover split hi lo. The low end of the 210 is unused.

This means the phase integration of my mixed cabs full range is good enough but less than perfect. Your cabs may be designed to the nth degree or more likely similar performance to my mongrel stack.

Physics tells me your stack would occupy less stage area if it was twin 210 stacked vertically.

 

[Stevorebob]

I was a mixed cab guy for much of my 40-plus years playing bass. I came to TalkBass and learned a few things, and I tried matched cabs. What I found was far fewer "bad rooms" with matched cabs. YMMV.

I think that many of us go the mixed cab route for what we believe is better rather than what we hear is better. In my mixed cab days, I auditioned and purchased my cabs separately, not trying out the combination in the show room. In practice, rehearsals and on stage, I heard only the upper cab, so I thought, "It sounds good to me from where I stand, if it sounds bad out there, it's the room."

Anyway, that's my experience. Your's may be different.

 

[fendermademygibson]

the argument won't be about the pickle, it'll be about why you're not using a carrot instead.

Probably more like what kind of and how much tone wood material went into the cardboard to make the box.

 

[ThisBass]

Meant as a supplement addressed to all the DIY cab builders. The cab tuning has got a large impact on system damping. A very low tuning (mostly) causes overdamped characeristic while very high tuning yields in resonant characteristic. Somewhere between of both "ends" the tuning provides critical damping characteristic which provides good damping as well as balanced frequency response.

Some folks may prefere lower tuning with an aim to get as much useable low end as possible. The feel of those cabs is a very tight (overdamped) articulation with somewhat weak response at the lows. The tonal feel is dominated by mid bass rather than "big" low end. Cabs like this may be a perfect choice in boomy room environment, or perfect choice for players who are looking for very tight tonal definition.

Other folks may prefere higher tunings to yield an extraordinary fat response at the lows. Those cabs probably don't work well in every environment and (probably) don't work well with every amplifier. The system "damping" tends to get resonant characteristic which implies a more loosen articulation. May be a cab like this works well with a solid state amplifier with sufficiant damping factor but, also may be the tonal response becomes to muddy/boomy with a tube amplifier that provides moderate overall negative feedbacking at best.

Bsides resonant and overdamped characteristic there is the critical damped characteristic which provides good balance (good trade off) of sufficiant system damping and smooth balanced frequency response. That's the system characteristic I like best because it's a good compromise to work well in many room environments and with very different amplifiers.

I think it's worth the effort to figure out which kind of characteristic (or which trade off) is best for personal needs. Some like it very tight in articulation while others prefere a fat sound. If I was a pro cab builder I probably would give most of respect to the critical damping because it (probably) would promise a good acceptance by the mainstream.

Independent of driver size there is possibility to "tune" just same driver(s) loaded into a cab to different tonal charceristaca at the lows.

May be that some manufacturers try to prevent extended low end (or bassy sound) of their cabs by exhausting cab tuning to the upper end of only just useful numbers. A cab like that may sound very impresive on it's own but it does not mean it's practical to mix it with a different one. At the other hand a lower tuning may (probably) somewhat demand for some low end extension but, may be it's designers goal doing it this way.

 

[kesslari]

I was a mixed cab guy for much of my 40-plus years playing bass. I came to TalkBass and learned a few things, and I tried matched cabs. What I found was far fewer "bad rooms" with matched cabs. YMMV.

I think that many of us go the mixed cab route for what we believe is better rather than what we hear is better. In my mixed cab days, I auditioned and purchased my cabs separately, not trying out the combination in the show room. In practice, rehearsals and on stage, I heard only the upper cab, so I thought, "It sounds good to me from where I stand, if it sounds bad out there, it's the room."

Anyway, that's my experience. Your's may be different.

I hear you. "What we believe is better" is a big issue here. "15's for lows, 10's for mids" is a common belief (or at least a common statement) among people who mix cabs". For that matter, "2 of the same cabs sound better" is a belief for those who don't.
I personally rock a pair of cabs with mixed drivers. They were designed, and crossed over, to work together properly. They also include a pair of 10's that produce thunderous, bootymoving lows. No 15 needed for that.

 

[agedhorse]

Meant as a supplement addressed to all the DIY cab builders. The cab tuning has got a large impact on system damping. A very low tuning (mostly) causes overdamped characeristic while very high tuning yields in resonant characteristic. Somewhere between of both "ends" the tuning provides critical damping characteristic which provides good damping as well as balanced frequency response.

Some folks may prefere lower tuning with an aim to get as much useable low end as possible. The feel of those cabs is a very tight (overdamped) articulation with somewhat weak response at the lows. The tonal feel is dominated by mid bass rather than "big" low end. Cabs like this may be a perfect choice in boomy room environment, or perfect choice for players who are looking for very tight tonal definition.

Other folks may prefere higher tunings to yield an extraordinary fat response at the lows. Those cabs probably don't work well in every environment and (probably) don't work well with every amplifier. The system "damping" tends to get resonant characteristic which implies a more loosen articulation. May be a cab like this works well with a solid state amplifier with sufficiant damping factor but, also may be the tonal response becomes to muddy/boomy with a tube amplifier that provides moderate overall negative feedbacking at best.

Bsides resonant and overdamped characteristic there is the critical damped characteristic which provides good balance (good trade off) of sufficiant system damping and smooth balanced frequency response. That's the system characteristic I like best because it's a good compromise to work well in many room environments and with very different amplifiers.

I think it's worth the effort to figure out which kind of characteristic (or which trade off) is best for personal needs. Some like it very tight in articulation while others prefere a fat sound. If I was a pro cab builder I probably would give most of respect to the critical damping because it (probably) would promise a good acceptance by the mainstream.

Independent of driver size there is possibility to "tune" just same driver(s) loaded into a cab to different tonal charceristaca at the lows.

May be that some manufacturers try to prevent extended low end (or bassy sound) of their cabs by exhausting cab tuning to the upper end of only just useful numbers. A cab like that may sound very impresive on it's own but it does not mean it's practical to mix it with a different one. At the other hand a lower tuning may (probably) somewhat demand for some low end extension but, may be it's designers goal doing it this way.

Classic electronic filter theory response stuff. Very much used in the development of speaker systems by electrical engineers who might know a thing or two about the math behind filter theory.

 

[LowStringNinja]

You know..we keep talking bad about it..
...instead of talking about why this rig sounds so AWESOME:

..What someone should do, though..is talk to our singer about how
all those x-mas lights are putting noise in our audio equipment...
..since no one wants to listen to the bass player.

 

[agedhorse]

Maybe it's not the christmas lights but something wrong with the audio equipment that is allowing noise to be transmitted into where it shouldn't be.

They aren't on a dimmer, right? (hope not)

 

[LowStringNinja]

Maybe it's not the christmas lights but something wrong with the audio equipment that is allowing noise to be transmitted into where it shouldn't be.

They aren't on a dimmer, right? (hope not)

no, they're just all over the place and hooked into the same power strips as everything...PA cables running along side runs of them. I just hear a lot more buzz in that room than other rooms. The other band I'm with currently had some speaker cables I made out of that typical, clear 16 gauge speaker wire that our DJ had run along side and bundled among various power lines and power strips...and there was a ton of buzz coming from the PA system. I convinced him to clean all that up on a suspicion that it was causing the problem. Cleaning all that up and getting the power lines and speaker wires away from each other did get rid of all that buzz, but it might not have been the cause...I got him to unhook everything and re-run it all, so it could've been something else. So I just figured that all those cheap little x-mas light power wires running alongside the speaker cables could be a culprit of buzz.

 

[agedhorse]

Unplug the lights and see what happens

 

[Jeff Scott]

Unplug the lights and see what happens

But, then it will be too dark for him to hear anything.

 

[LowStringNinja]

But, then it will be too dark for him to hear anything.

it is pretty dark to hear without them. I'd like to unplug them, but the singer says he's terrible without x-mas lights...and considering how horrible he is with them on, it might be best to leave them alone.

 

[Ric5]

 

[sigterm]

Don't tell anyone but my last gig was with a Mesa D800 running into a Hartke 4.5(410) and a 215XL Hartke all running at 2ohms and it slayed.
It didn't look good on paper but it sure melted faces!
I once again will say don't care what it is as long as it sounds good to you.
I would rock a empty box of Frootloops with a pickle in the bottom if it sounded good, but I'm sure someone on here will argue about what type of pickle sounds best in that setup.

Pickle Rick sounds the best on any set up.