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The argument for (or) against mixing cabs - example: 115 & 410

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#222
And in any event make sure there's no
dome_tweeter.jpg

in the cab, unless the entire cab is

dome_tweeter.jpg

or you're mixing drivers, and that's a no no.

;) Sorry if this is troll-y, these threads just always get heavy fast.... if this is unwelcome, please flag it if you feel the need.
 
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#223
And on topic, it is all very subjective, and is as with all theories, (obviously) up to debate.

I have repeated:
If it sounds good to you, and works for your application, then it is working good (paraphrase)
Use and trust your ears, in the real world, with all things, there are few absolutes.
there are unflinching adherents to particular trains of thought (EX: Mac vs PC vs Linux)
when in fact, at the end of the day, they are more similar, than different.

in reality its all shades of grey, and the end of the day (and no not 50)
There is a reason that line arrays are designed the way they are, in a vertical line, (curved mind you in a single plane)

The main reason I stand in the camp of avoiding mixing cabinets, is power distribution.
Does that equate to blown drivers?
it MAY.
(See earlier analogy of towing a trailer with a VW beetle, and driving a nail with a rock rather than a hammer)
IE: distinction between "works" and "better/more efficient" if you want to start fire by rubbing 2 stick together, be my guest.

If in the process of "getting loud" you exceed the thermal/mechanical limits of the driver(s).
if the power limitations are skewed too widely, the LIKELYHOOD of failure is going to find the weak point.
Avoidance of that situation, is just sound (lol) thinking is it not?
EX:
2 x 8 ohm cabinet(s) connected to a Solid State amplifier, that produces 250W (max) into 8 ohms
assuming the amp is at max output=250 watts
Cabinet 1 ) A 4x (whatever 5/8/10/12/15/18") each individual driver will "get" 62.5 watts
Cabinet 2) Single Driver (pick your poison) will "get" 250 Watts.
is this a difficult concept to grasp? is this a disputed claim? is the math or science flawed?

there are many that cling to what works for them, (and it does) but some wish to improve upon what they have
(so it will work for them)
Levels of acceptance vary GREATLY. Opinions of what sounds good is as numerous as grains of sand on a beach.

To some a Victrola sounds fine.
Some cannot hear the difference between:
Vinyl, Tape, DAT, (is it live? or Memorex?) CD's, MP'S, Ogg Compressed radio transmissions ETC.
ALTHOUGH there is, in fact a measurable, verifiable difference.
maxell-commercial-o.gif
 
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#224
Now all I have for real scientific argument is the firm belief that the best way around phase problems is to use a stand alone bass bass rig without DI or mic and then gate all the PA mic channels. so in effect your bass rig only sounds phase correct when everybody else stops playing or singing?.
The other argument is that microphones don't have the low frequency response to disturb the phase of your rig by introducing spill?.
Well the normal live situation is that phase distortion introduces cancellations across the range and the ones you notice are in fact in effecting the dispersion of the midrange. The hall can be left to its own devises at lower frequencies and will require no speaker matching whatsoever to make a boomy resonant peaky mess of anything you throw in it that contains a lot of energy below 200HZ.
I still await a convincing scientific explanation as to why mixing 10" and 15" loudspeakers full range in real gig situations makes any audible difference at all.
As to the you will blow the fifteen in a 4x10 + 1x15 possy, quoting power handling imbalance.
You are dead right, you need another 15" to add to that rig if you run at enough watts where you are in danger of destroying any of your speakers.
But then the precise tonal dispersion and appreciation of your sound would also hopefully include some sensitivity to excessive loudspeaker distortion and farting coming from the 15" in your mix?.
PS However If like me you are using tube amps that have insufficient watts to destroy the loudspeakers you have connected to them? There is another real world example that makes the anti mixing argument even thinner than it already pathetically is.
 
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#225
CL400Peavey said:
The fact that he didn't use the word "impedance" leads me to question the rest of his feedback.
Click to expand...
Perhaps he's had to explain the word "impedance" enough times to lay-people, that he has taken to using the term "ohm load" so that a customer who may not understand can more easily associate this with the cabinet ratings.

Quite the stickler, you.
 
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#226
Bassmec said:
Now all I have for real scientific argument is the firm belief that the best way around phase problems is to use a stand alone bass bass rig without DI or mic and then gate all the PA mic channels. so in effect your bass rig only sounds phase correct when everybody else stops playing or singing?.
The other argument is that microphones don't have the low frequency response to disturb the phase of your rig by introducing spill?.
Well the normal live situation is that phase distortion introduces cancellations across the range and the ones you notice are in fact in effecting the dispersion of the midrange. The hall can be left to its own devises at lower frequencies and will require no speaker matching whatsoever to make a boomy resonant peaky mess of anything you throw in it that contains a lot of energy below 200HZ.
I still await a convincing scientific explanation as to why mixing 10" and 15" loudspeakers full range in real gig situations makes any audible difference at all.
As to the you will blow the fifteen in a 4x10 + 1x15 possy, quoting power handling imbalance.
You are dead right, you need another 15" to add to that rig if you run at enough watts where you are in danger of destroying any of your speakers.
But then the precise tonal dispersion and appreciation of your sound would also hopefully include some sensitivity to excessive loudspeaker distortion and farting coming from the 15" in your mix?.
Click to expand...
i do not disagree, but that does not discount, that by mitigating as many of the factors as possible, that the net result would (in theory) reduce the overall negative impact (to varying degrees of success).
So the effort to reduce the conflicting factors is a laudable goal, that may achieve an improved outcome. Would that be a fair statement?
 
#231
hover said:
And in any event make sure there's no
dome_tweeter.jpg

in the cab, unless the entire cab is

dome_tweeter.jpg

or you're mixing drivers, and that's a no no.

;) Sorry if this is troll-y, these threads just always get heavy fast.... if this is unwelcome, please flag it if you feel the need.
Click to expand...

Keep missing the point of cross overs being brought up?

Double E said:
Perhaps he's had to explain the word "impedance" enough times to lay-people, that he has taken to using the term "ohm load" so that a customer who may not understand can more easily associate this with the cabinet ratings.

Quite the stickler, you.
Click to expand...

If I ask a tech question, I dont trust an answer that is dumbed down. It isnt for my sake.... so it must be fore theirs.
 
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#239
/\/\3phist0 said:
i do not disagree, but that does not discount, that by mitigating as many of the factors as possible, that the net result would (in theory) reduce the overall negative impact (to varying degrees of success).
So the effort to reduce the conflicting factors is a laudable goal, that may achieve an improved outcome. Would that be a fair statement?
Click to expand...
No it's very simple, whatever the driver sizes, if you stand the cabinets reproducing the same signal in different places in the hall, you have already made any small improvements in comb filtering due to not mixing driver sizes, totally irrelevant in real terms.
Your best bet would be to introduce a little labs phase tool in your Di output, walk out from the stage to the console and twiddle with the knob until you have phase correlation between your rig and the front of house at the mixing console listening position, because it won't be in phase anywhere else in the hall whatever you do.
PS Science has deduced that sound does not in fact travel at the speed of light, it has been measured at circa 1.1 milliseconds a foot.
Theoretically you could forgo the phase tool and measure the position of your bass rig relevant to the wave front of the front of house and use a micro delays in the PA crossover to compensate by delaying your front of house PA.
But as many have digital consoles and DSC's with built in latency it would be important to factor in those micro delays as well.:-)
 
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#240
I ran a 410 and 115 set up for years (I havent' gigged in a while, and just use the 410). The 115 didn't add the lows I was expecting to the set up (I think the 410 when just as low, with more snap on the highs) BUT it sounded just fine with no weird frequency cancellation issues. As far as the damage argument, buy a 15 that can handle what your amp puts out. I was running 240 into each cab, and the 115 was rated for 500.
 
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