• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join free Log in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

The basic flaw in the p-bass

#521
Outsider said:
Guys, this thread has been fun, lots of opinions and fighting, even some graphs.
I really don't want to go back and read every-single-post. Does anyone have TL;DR for this thread?
Click to expand...

Something like this.

1: P Basses are flawed because they lose low end when you turn up the tone knob.
2: Boo! P Bass roolz!
3: Actually there's a weird phenomenon that makes it seem like you lose low end to some people where you get a mid-range peak when the tone knob is all the way off. And it's not exclusive to P Basses but is true of all passives.
4: That's not true! Tone knobs don't do that!
5: Yes they do. [Science]
6: Okay.
7: Where were we again?
8: P Basses are fine and always were.
 
#522
petrus61 said:
Yes. There are dead spots and there are dead "zones". One or two frets, fine. But I've encountered some pretty awful ones that I'm surprised ever left the factory. It all depends on playing style, IMO. Someone who only visits that part of the neck for a very brief stab won't see it as a big deal, which is probably most people. But some folks do visit that part of the neck quite a bit, for example, repeating 16th note octaves in that position for a funk song can really suck. To have every note ring clear then choke out in the course of a run is just flat out annoying, again, IMO.

As to the length of this thread, it seems the most inane topics get the most attention sometimes. Not to say that this is one of those topics or anything...

As far as the Ox's tone, I have to wonder how many saw him live compared to just hearing some concert footage. I'm not saying I liked what his tone evolved to...his best was Precisions and Thunderbirds into Hiwatts, Sunn and Marshals. But the last incarnation of his tone was something that did not translate well into television, computer or even surround sound. It was modular and very complex, with the lows, mids and highs being cranked through separate stages. His low end live was massive and much more balanced then it comes across through film/board recordings. I also hated what his tone eventually became compared to what it was in the glory days of the Who. I think what he always wanted to sound like was finally realized through technology, and that was to sound like a bass 'GUITAR'. Unfortunately, the results were not as well received.
Click to expand...

Not that this thread needs to be any longer, but here's another Entwhistle quote...
From August 1989 Guitar Player

How long did it take for your sound concept to begin developing?

"Well, I’d learned to play by ear, by playing along with records by Eddie Cochran, Gene Vincent, the Ventures, Buddy Holly, the Shadows, and especially Duane Eddy —his guitar had the sound I wanted my bass to have. When I began experimenting, I still had a sort of thuddy, boomy bass sound, but I remember a turning point a few years later. We had our first hit record with the Who, “I Can’t Explain”, and showed up at a big hall for a concert only to find the place empty because the promoter had forgotten to promote it. So we decided to make use of the situation by having a rehearsal. I had a Rickenbacker bass and Marshall amps at the time, and after we started playing, our manager came up to me and said, “it’s all very well, you playing that fast, but I can’t hear the notes you’re playing in the back. Why don’t you try putting a bit of treble on it?” I’d always been tempted to turn up the treble but didn’t dare, because bassists just didn’t do that. So I opened up the treble on my amp and bass and started playing like Duane Eddy.

That was the turning point, but what I didn’t realize was that I’d set quite a task for myself, because you can’t play sloppily using that much high end. I had to clean it up and find a fluid way of damping the notes so they didn’t blur into each other or vary in volume."
 
#527
Ric5 said:
The basic flaw in the p-bass

Quote from John Entwistle ... “Once you turn up the treble on a Precision, the bottom drops out.” “In big arenas, I wasn’t getting enough bottom end from the P-Basses when I had the treble all the way up.”

I re-discovered this last weekend ... I went to an outdoor party and our band played and some others as well. In my band one of the guitar players is also a bass player. I brought 3 basses and he brought a guitar and a bass. So at the end I plug in his p-bass with flats. He has always bragged about the low end from this bass. So I plug it into my Rig. An Ampeg with 2 2x10 cabs and a line out into the PA, and I turn up both knobs and to my surprise the was very little low end, just a lot of midrange plunky noise and clicks and fret buzz.

The basses that I had were a 5 string Rickenbacker a 5 string jazz with a stingray pickup in the bridge and a frankensteined 2 pickup SG bass also with 5 strings. All 3 of these basses had more bottom than the Fender p-bass with flats.


***************************************************************

EDIT

I started this thread to discuss the p-bass and the nature of the tone control on this bass. At first a lot people seemed threatened and seemed to think that I hate p-basses. I like the p-bass and the jazz bass, and many other basses. The thread has developed into a good discussion of what happens to the frequency responses of the p-bass as you change settings on the tone control. The p-bass is more of a mid ranged intstrument. As you roll off the tione control it produces a lot of low mids which people percieve as low end, when the tone control is opened up it produces a lot of high mids which is percieved as high end. That is why Entwistle made the statement quoted above. I like to have treble, bass, and mids in my bass tone when playing. Also my rig and my pedal board are set up to add a lot of mids to my bass tone as I play.
Click to expand...


You're just jealous of my PBass that's all. :p :D

Since I'm "that guitarist" mentioned I get to respond and clarify what I've meant by what was said.......and I don't brag either, LOL. My PBass can speak for itself and in a much lower voice too. ;)

I think when we we're talking about the lows on a PBass it's the low mids and fundamentals I'm talking about not sub like booming atomic lows. IMHO that's what makes a PBass so easily able get under a lot of the other instruments sonically and sit well in the mix. It punches through without losing it's fundamentals and mid low bottoms and it's very full throated in that range and not at all "scooped".

I agree that compared to your Rics and the others you play it's very much a "one trick pony" but it does that one trick extremely well. It's the simple fundamental rhythmic foundation it creates that's it's strong point not it's versatility. I have no need to play with my tone knob dimed on that bass. It's never rolled up more than about 20% (just like I don't roll it back past 40% or so on my Teles where I'd lose all the highs) so I'm not losing much if any of those frequencies anyway. But I wouldn't disagree with you at all the the tone control functions more as a mid sweep than it may on other basses. I believe it was designed that way to narrow it's tonal focus to what was considered most useable at the time.

There weren't any slap happy funk players around in the early '50s, many bassists played with their thumbs instead of a pick, and it was never envisioned as a solo instrument. It was simply meant to replace the "dog house" bass in bands and recording studios allowing a bassist more accurate intonation and tonal control when he played. Seeing as how it's competition was an upright bass it didn't need to do much more than cover the basic tonal range of those. It was never really designed to do more than that and it pretty much remains that way today. It is what it is and it either works for you or it doesn't.

I would say that a PBass is all wrong for your style of playing (and John Entwistles too for that matter) but it works quite well for mine. You're a Chris Squire and Geddy Lees fan and I'm more James Jamerson and Duck Dunn so our approach to the bass is quite different I also can't figure out what to do with that extra string on yours that keeps getting in my way all the time. ;)
 
#528
MrLenny1 said:
You get one tone knob, one Volume & one pickup. Not much to work with.
If it had bass, mid & treble it might be interesting but other than that it
a one trick pony and you need a good amp to make up the difference.
Click to expand...

The things you point out in your statement as shortcomings are exactly why the Precision is loved by so many. It's why it is still favored by so many engineers and gigging
musicians...because it doesn't need an active pre-amp to make it get a balanced sound that covers the sonic spectrum so well. There's opinion and then there is fact. For example, it is my 'opinion' that active electronics are very often used arbitrarily by bass companies as some significant feature or sign of superior quality to lure the uninformed into a purchase. Quality of sound isn't taken into consideration, only a feature set that quite frankly isn't necessary and is often overused and mishandled by kids and hobbyists with little understanding of what it is those knobs actually do. It is a 'fact' that there are some excellent sounding active preamps and pickups out there and lots of folks that utilize them to great effect.

See what I did there?
 
#529
Ric5 said:
The basic flaw in the p-bass

Quote from John Entwistle ... “Once you turn up the treble on a Precision, the bottom drops out.” “In big arenas, I wasn’t getting enough bottom end from the P-Basses when I had the treble all the way up.”

I re-discovered this last weekend ... I went to an outdoor party and our band played and some others as well. In my band one of the guitar players is also a bass player. I brought 3 basses and he brought a guitar and a bass. So at the end I plug in his p-bass with flats. He has always bragged about the low end from this bass. So I plug it into my Rig. An Ampeg with 2 2x10 cabs and a line out into the PA, and I turn up both knobs and to my surprise the was very little low end, just a lot of midrange plunky noise and clicks and fret buzz.

The basses that I had were a 5 string Rickenbacker a 5 string jazz with a stingray pickup in the bridge and a frankensteined 2 pickup SG bass also with 5 strings. All 3 of these basses had more bottom than the Fender p-bass with flats.


***************************************************************

EDIT

I started this thread to discuss the p-bass and the nature of the tone control on this bass. At first a lot people seemed threatened and seemed to think that I hate p-basses. I like the p-bass and the jazz bass, and many other basses. The thread has developed into a good discussion of what happens to the frequency responses of the p-bass as you change settings on the tone control. The p-bass is more of a mid ranged intstrument. As you roll off the tione control it produces a lot of low mids which people percieve as low end, when the tone control is opened up it produces a lot of high mids which is percieved as high end. That is why Entwistle made the statement quoted above. I like to have treble, bass, and mids in my bass tone when playing. Also my rig and my pedal board are set up to add a lot of mids to my bass tone as I play.
Click to expand...


You're just jealous of my PBass that's all. :p :D

Since I'm "that guitarist" mentioned I get to respond and clarify what I've meant by what was said.......and I don't brag either, LOL. My PBass can speak for itself and in a much lower voice too. ;)

I think when we we're talking about the lows on a PBass it's the low mids and fundamentals I'm talking about not sub like booming atomic lows. IMHO that's what makes a PBass so easily able get under a lot of the other instruments sonically and sit well in the mix. It punches through without losing it's fundamentals and mid low bottoms and it's very full throated in that range and not at all "scooped".

I agree that compared to your Rics and the others you play it's very much a "one trick pony" but it does that one trick extremely well. It's the simple fundamental rhythmic foundation it creates that's it's strong point not it's versatility. I have no need to play with my tone knob dimed on that bass. It's never rolled up more than about 20% (just like I don't roll it back past 40% or so on my Teles where I'd lose all the highs) so I'm not losing much if any of those frequencies anyway. But I wouldn't disagree with you at all the the tone control functions more as a mid sweep than it may on other basses. I believe it was designed that way to narrow it's tonal focus to what was considered most useable at the time.

There weren't any slap happy funk players around in the early '50s, many bassists played with their thumbs instead of a pick, and it was never envisioned as a solo instrument. It was simply meant to replace the "dog house" bass in bands and recording studios allowing a bassist more accurate intonation and tonal control when he played. Seeing as how it's competition was an upright bass it didn't need to do much more than cover the basic tonal range of those. It was never really designed to do more than that and it pretty much remains that way today. It is what it is and it either works for someone or it doesn't.

I would say that a PBass is all wrong for your style of playing (and John Entwistles too for that matter) but it works quite well for mine. You're a Chris Squire and Geddy Lees fan and I'm more James Jamerson and Duck Dunn so our approach to the bass is quite different I also can't figure out what to do with that extra string on yours that keeps getting in my way all the time. ;)
 
#530
My band was trying out a new drummer and we went to his place to play. He said he had a bass amp so I din't bring my ampeg. Well the bass amp was a 20 watt acoustic with a 1x10 speaker. Needless to say It distorted when it was turned up load enough to be heard with a drummer. Thank God I had a jazz bass insted of a p-bass, because I was able to scoop out the low mids and decrease the distortion
 
#531
soulman969 said:
I would say that a PBass is all wrong for your style of playing (and John Entwistles too for that matter) but it works quite well for mine. You're a Chris Squire and Geddy Lees fan and I'm more James Jamerson and Duck Dunn so our approach to the bass is quite different I also can't figure out what to do with that extra string on yours that keeps getting in my way all the time. ;)
Click to expand...

Actually I require my bass to do the Geddy and Squire tone and do Jamerson and Dunn tone as well. If it can't do all of that then it doesn't work for me.
 
#533
petrus61 said:
There isn't a bass on the planet that can do all of those things.
Click to expand...

Variax or a bass with Roland v-bass system fitted. In other words, it can be done great with modeling.

And again... My BTB with vari mid can sort of do it... But not quite perfectly. Half of it is in the playing of course... And no doubt there are players who can emulate those guys better than I can.... But I get close enough to make people happy.
 
#534
dkelley said:
Variax or a bass with Roland v-bass system fitted. In other words, it can be done great with modeling.

And again... My BTB with vari mid can sort of do it... But not quite perfectly. Half of it is in the playing of course... And no doubt there are players who can emulate those guys better than I can.... But I get close enough to make people happy.
Click to expand...

I had a variax for a while. IMO, it had some good sounds in it, but none of them really captured the tones of the basses that it modeled.
 
#536
I've been playing bass for a day or two, and I've owned/own a bass or three. I've played small, medium and large venues. I've done some studio work. Here's my naked conclusion that's sure to get me flamed:

1. Live, regardless of venue, I can accomplish just about any type of music I play (does NOT include Jazz) with just about any type of serviceable bass on the market today. Yes, I'm a recalcitrant, degenerate, unrepentant bass whore. There are a very few exceptions, but generally, through playing style, amplification, and on occasion modeling, I can get it done. I'd bet 90% of you who play at a high level might agree even if you don't want to.

2. In a studio setting, this is, generally, not true.

3. Yes, certain basses feel better (completely subjective, mind you...) and for a long time I'd never get on stage without one of "those" basses, but now it's really not that big of a deal to me. Personally. I'm going to rock it, or not, based on ME, if I've communicated will with my tech and sound man, and...well that's it.

4. Excuse me now while I go scour the TB classifieds and evil bay.

5. As one poster stated, the P-bass may well be a one trick pony. Though I'm no Fender fan boy, I'll admit that on trick is a HUGE portion of the genres most of us play. And if you're headed to the studio for payed session work, you can bring all of your fancy favorites with you, but 30 minutes in, you ARE going to be plucking or picking away on a P-bass. Bet that. I think that's why most of my newest custom builds are passive.
 
#537
Agree fully.

Please let me add the following pragmatic and/or cynical point

6. The audience - unless there's a bass nerd in there - couldn't care less what bass you play, will not know the difference in sound, and doesn't know or much care which nuance of bass sound is "right" for a song.
 
#539
IGotGas said:
I've been playing bass for a day or two, and I've owned/own a bass or three. I've played small, medium and large venues. I've done some studio work. Here's my naked conclusion that's sure to get me flamed:

1. Live, regardless of venue, I can accomplish just about any type of music I play (does NOT include Jazz) with just about any type of serviceable bass on the market today. Yes, I'm a recalcitrant, degenerate, unrepentant bass whore. There are a very few exceptions, but generally, through playing style, amplification, and on occasion modeling, I can get it done. I'd bet 90% of you who play at a high level might agree even if you don't want to.

2. In a studio setting, this is, generally, not true.

3. Yes, certain basses feel better (completely subjective, mind you...) and for a long time I'd never get on stage without one of "those" basses, but now it's really not that big of a deal to me. Personally. I'm going to rock it, or not, based on ME, if I've communicated will with my tech and sound man, and...well that's it.

4. Excuse me now while I go scour the TB classifieds and evil bay.

5. As one poster stated, the P-bass may well be a one trick pony. Though I'm no Fender fan boy, I'll admit that on trick is a HUGE portion of the genres most of us play. And if you're headed to the studio for payed session work, you can bring all of your fancy favorites with you, but 30 minutes in, you ARE going to be plucking or picking away on a P-bass. Bet that. I think that's why most of my newest custom builds are passive.
Click to expand...


This guy is telling it how it is.

I believe it was me who called the Precision a one trick pony. It sure is. But I think it's a damned good trick.
 
#540
FretNoMore said:
Agree fully.

Please let me add the following pragmatic and/or cynical point

6. The audience - unless there's a bass nerd in there - couldn't care less what bass you play, will not know the difference in sound, and doesn't know or much care which nuance of bass sound is "right" for a song.
Click to expand...

Exactly - sometimes they don't even know they're hearing bass until it's not there.
 

Latest posts

Top Bottom
Back