Double Bass The day the BG took over.

[Paul Warburton]

Just curious, why turn a very interesting thread on a specific subject into something completely different?

Becasue this's TB, Eric, but yeah. As I said, I may
be the only DB player on this site
active during the change and I did have some interesting stories to share. I'll pass.

 

[Eric Hochberg]

I read a book called the history of the Fender bass and the thing that people haven't mentioned is that it allowed guitarists to play bass and you could save money on a session!

The story I heard was that "Tic Tac" bass in Nashville
sessions originally involved hiring and paying a DB player and a guitarist. But with the advent of the Fender bass - they realised they only need pay one player!

I don't think they were doing much overdubbing back in the fifties, if that is when bass guitar started being recorded.

 

[Eric Hochberg]

Salcott, This is pretty much spot on. I for one did not think that the purpose of this thread was to find the first guy who played the porkchop in a jazz setting and then verbally tar and feather him.

Like it or not, music and musical tastes have and are continually changing. This fact can be observed throughout the history of western music. There are not too many people that are playing lutes these days. Why is that? Jazz, at one time, as most of us know, was considered to be the popular music of its' day. Then it became a niche market and it is so to this day.

Look, I love jazz and love playing the double bass. However, I'm not going to be misanthropic regarding the Fender bass and what it's brought to the table. In the late 50's early 60's, record companies, band leaders, producers and many very good musicians began to see the musical possibilities of the Fender bass. Carol Kaye was a guitarist who switched to Fender bass and became a very successful L.A. studio musician, changing the way bass was heard on records in the process. Jamie Jamerson was a double bassist who switched to the fender electric bass and created some amazing syncopated bass lines which came to be known as the Motown sound. These players, and many others, helped contribute and expand what bass players could do in other settings besides jazz.

Personally, I still would much rather hear double bass in most jazz music settings although Jaco Pastorious did blaze a pretty incredible path and showed us how an electric bass could do some pretty interesting things in the right hands.

Why do some of us seem so misanthropic regarding electric bass? The Fender has ben around for over 50 years. It is what it is. Some on this forum may not like the Fender (electric) bass but I fail to see how this changes anything. Maybe this thread is just supposed to be a big bitch session. If so, in the immortal words of Yogi Berra, "count me out".

I agree with much of what you say, Trey, but regarding this thread, I thought it was intended to be more of an historical exploration than an "I like this bass or that bass" testimonial, which is why I brought up the change of topic thing after 4 posters got into their own personal experiences.

I haven't caught any Fender bass hating here.

 

[Schlyder]

I have read/heard it was Montgomery playing with Lionel Hampton also.

 

[Paul Warburton]

I agree with much of what you say, Trey, but regarding this thread, I thought it was intended to be more of a history lesson than an "I like this bass or that bass" testimonial, which is why I brought up the change of topic thing after 4 posters got into their own personal experiences.

I haven't caught any Fender bass hating here.

Me niether. Look, my posts on my relationships with Red Mitchell, Bill Evans and many more have been met with enthusiasm here. I thought you all might find it interesting to hear from someone who's old enough to have been around during this period. And, hopefully bring out some guys who are active here, who may have been around then. Those threads did get into a Q & A thing that ended up, or at least, seemed valuable to many.

 

[Eric Hochberg]

Me niether. Look, my posts on my relationships with Red Mitchell, Bill Evans and many more have been met with enthusiasm here. I thought you all might find it interesting to hear from someone who's old enough to have been around during this period. And, hopefully bring out some guys who are active here, who may have been around then. Those threads did get into a Q & A thing that ended up, or at least, seemed valuable to many.

I, for one, would like to hear some of your stories on the subject. Purty pleeeeze...

 

[bassist1962]

I, for one, would like to hear some of your stories on the subject. Purty pleeeeze...

+1000.

I posted my personal experience with a player that was around at the time of the switch. I would like to hear someone else's experience.

 

[Treyzer]

I think this is from Bill Crow's column:
Jimmy Rowles receives a Grammy for Lifetime Achievement and in the rush of interviews backstage someone, who doesn't really know Jimmy or anything about him, asks "After such a long career in music, do you have any regrets?" And Jimmy replies, without pause, "Yeah, I regret having not burned down the Fender factory..."

I don't want to get into a "he said she said" thing, or stir anything up. But I was responding to comments like these. My little personal story was poking fun at myself an it happened in the early sixties. It was meant to show where some young musicians who started out on the double bass were heading probably due to changing cultural and musical tastes. I also responded to Paul regarding Max Bennet because I ran into him more than a few times. As a matter of fact, one of his old girl friends introduced herself to me out here on Kauai.

I was working in L.A. as far back as the early 70's and meeting and playing with many of the guys who had been jazzers or were still active in jazz but also doing sessions or touring with acts other than jazz acts. I think Max wanted to be part of the current "hip" scene, make some money and do sessions instead of go out and tour all the time. I also think he saw the bass guitar as his entree into a lifestyle he wanted. I'm not really sensitive about the electric bass. Shoot, I hardly ever play it. However, I do get paid to play the double bass and I have been a musician for over 40 years. One of my retirement checks will be coming from local 47 for the records and TV dates I did. So I think my input is, at the very least, cogent.

I would love to hear Paul's stories. I always enjoy what he has to say and I certainly respect him, his bass playing and his musical history. I was just kind of following and responding to what I was reading!

All the best and aloha nui loa,

T

 

[J. Montgomery]

One of the things that I like about the Milt Hinton book is his stories about transitional phases in music, like going from being a road musician to a studio musician, etc . . .

The same goes for the Pops Foster book, who goes into discussion about the change from tuba to double bass.

Lets hear some stories, Paul!

 

[Eric Hochberg]

But I was responding to comments like these.

I think this is from Bill Crow's column:
Jimmy Rowles receives a Grammy for Lifetime Achievement and in the rush of interviews backstage someone, who doesn't really know Jimmy or anything about him, asks "After such a long career in music, do you have any regrets?" And Jimmy replies, without pause, "Yeah, I regret having not burned down the Fender factory..."

I get it now, I just got a laugh out of that one as it is so typical of a certain generation of jazz musicians . Your observations and knowledge are always appreciated, Trey.

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

I don't think they were doing much overdubbing back in the fifties, if that is when bass guitar started being recorded.

That was the point - they had to have two players and pay two session fees, but once guitarists started to pick up on the new Fender basses...try this thread http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f19/tic-tac-bass-style-433009/

 

[Zerofox Kitsune]

Me niether. Look, my posts on my relationships with Red Mitchell, Bill Evans and many more have been met with enthusiasm here. I thought you all might find it interesting to hear from someone who's old enough to have been around during this period. And, hopefully bring out some guys who are active here, who may have been around then. Those threads did get into a Q & A thing that ended up, or at least, seemed valuable to many.

I'm still interested. I happen to love story time.

I, for one, would like to hear some of your stories on the subject. Purty pleeeeze...

Lets hear some stories, Paul!

And it seems I'm not alone!

 

[NWB]

We're not communicating here, one guy isn't going to play bass and guitar at the same time...and without overdubs it can't get done by one player, and nobody's saving any money. There still needs to be a bassist and a guitarist.

When did Les Paul invent the multi-track?

I can't seem to remember that one.

And a few other questions here:

Who are some of the earlier guitarists that did double-duty on bass?

What are some of the earliest artist/albums featuring EB?

Any guesses why the EB didn't catch on earlier when it was invented by Paul Tutmark in 1935?

This historical perspective is very interesting to me.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Thread cleaned. Folks, if someone takes a dig at you in a public thread, please simply report it rather than reply and set off an unpleasant sidetrack to the thread. It's a good thread topic if we can keep it from getting derailed by personal stuff.

 

[Eric Hochberg]

When did Les Paul invent the multi-track?

I can't seem to remember that one.

Evidently, he commissioned Ampex to build an 8 track recorder in 1955. Got that here:

Invalid Link Removed

It seems from this article and Wikipedia that the common use of multi-tracking in pop music didn't really take hold until the mid-sixties.

Bruce, I may have been wrong about not overdubbing bass or guitar that early on. Sorry.

 

[NWB]

Evidently, he commissioned Ampex to build an 8 track recorder in 1955. Got that here:

Invalid Link Removed

It seems from this article and Wikipedia that the common use of multi-tracking in pop music didn't really take hold until the mid-sixties.

Thank you very much for the info.

I realize that multi-track recording is quite a tangent from the original subject and appreciate the response.

 

[ChuckCorbis]

I think this is from Bill Crow's column:
Jimmy Rowles receives a Grammy for Lifetime Achievement and in the rush of interviews backstage someone, who doesn't really know Jimmy or anything about him, asks "After such a long career in music, do you have any regrets?" And Jimmy replies, without pause, "Yeah, I regret having not burned down the Fender factory..."

A bit of trivia via Danny Young (Snooky's son -a bass player who played at times for The Fifth Dimension). Jimmy was among other things the musical director, arranger and keyboard player for The Fifth Dimension on numerous hits. You can hear him playing FENDER RHODES on The Age of Aquarius album.

 

[jtlownds]

I started gigging on double bass in '56. In '61, I rented a house from a Mr. Pedro Gonzales who had been the bass player for the "Down Homers", a popular western swing band in Connecticut during the '40s and '50s. When he found out that I was a bass player, he showed me a Fender Precision that he had owned for a few years, and offered to sell it to me. I bought it and tried it out with the band I was working with at the time. I remember feeling guilty because I didn't feel like I was earning my pay playing that thing with the band. It was just too easy. That is when I first realized how much physical work was involved in playing double bass. Now that I'm 74, I have learned to appreciate the occasional slab gig.

 

[boombloom]

Did Carol Kaye ever play upright? Carol Kaye Trailer - YouTube

 

[bassteban]

...I did have some interesting stories to share. I'll pass..

Please don't, Paul- I, for one, would love to hear a few. FWIW I started on slab 33 years ago, happened upon a Kay for DIRT maybe 25 years ago, replaced it w/another steal of a(reputedly)German prewar carved 3/4. Have taken a few basic lessons, do NOT work on it nearly enough to feel comfy posting here, but I did want to encourage Uncle P as he's behaving so nicely.
From my perspective there's always been an air of accomplishment/respectability about taking on DB- the *fad* aspect comes & goes.
Please pardon my semi-derail/tangent/bump.