Double Bass The day the BG took over.

[SAlcott]

Everett Hull was granted a patent for the "Amp Peg" (basically a microphone inside the bass) in 1947 and was advertising the Michael-Hull Model 770 Bassamp the same year.

Does anyone know what the next big thing was, pickupwise? I vaguely remember a contraption (DeArmond?) that fit into the bridge arch and made contact with the top of the bass. My first pickup, mid 70s, was a Polytone, followed by a Barcus-Berry stickon (clacky), a Fishman clipon (honky and clacky), Underwood (not bad), Schertler (very not bad), Realist, and finally, a Full Circle. Never could afford a Wilson, although I remember hearing several NY players, George Mraz in particular, getting a pretty good sound with it.

 

[Roger Davis]

Interesting that 1966 was my 'watershed'. I started on DB when I was at school in the late fifties on a £45 ($30) ply upright that I bought from Foote's in London. Incidentally Ray Brown was in the shop and I had a brief conversation with him but I didn't know who he was until he left and the assistant told me - doh! I would do four-hour dance band gigs unamplified but thought that there must be a better way. In the early sixties some Brit bands were using amplified DB, notably Johnny Hawksworth in the Ted Heath band. He was using a DiArmond contact mic into a custom-built Wallace amp. Later I saw a player using an Ampeg Portaflex - with started off my incurable GAS.

The contact mics sounded a bit grim but got the sound out. How I chanced on it I don't know but I used a ribbon mic and got a very good sound. Drums had always been with us so they were less of a problem but what did it for us was the universal adoption of the electronic keyboard - particularly the bloody organ. The double bass could never compete with that wall of sound. So we began to look towards the BG which was just starting to appear in UK. The John Barry Seven was the first one I saw on TV. So, after persevering on DB I went up to London intending to buy a Fender Jazz but came away with a Gibson EBO (second doh!). I remember my first gig on slab; I took to the stage and one of the saxes turned round an exclaimed 'You cowboy - you bloody cowboy!'

I doubled for a while but in 1966 I was playing each week in a lakeside club and used to park the bass in a store room. One day the mists came up and there was so much damp that when I next saw the bass all the joints had un-glued and it was literally a kit of parts. I re-assembled it with resin glue (third doh!) but it never sounded like a DB again. Strangely, I have no recall of setting the sound post or seeing the bass bar - perhaps I left it out. So in '66 my metamorphosis to a DG player was complete. I didn't pick up a DB again until 1994.

BTW, I think I can probably claim to be the first fretless player in UK when, in the early sixties my younger brother made me a BG to try out. I remember he used old headphone coils as the pickup and because he didn't have the skills to put the frets in, and I was a DB player, he simply left them out. It was quite good and I gigged it for a very short time.

 

[Paul Warburton]

In the early sixties some Brit bands were using amplified DB, notably Johnny Hawksworth in the Ted Heath band. .

Johhny Hawksworth was wonderful, Roger. Thanks for the reminder. You guys should look into him, if you can find anything. I loved the Ted Heath band when I was a kid. Johnny played very melodically with splendid chops and though I can't remember the drummers name, (Ronnie somebody?) they had a great hook-up and were very funny guys.
Great work on the research on the O.P. story that Trey alluded to, Chuck.
Steve, (Salcott) your info on the first P.U.'s are spot on, IME. I heard Red Norvo here in Denver in about 1960 with Red Wooten on DB. That was the first time I saw a name jazzer using an amp. It was an Ampeg P.U. Then the magnetic ones, screwed to the FB. The DeArmond's were awful. As Steve says, as well, the Polytones were the first really default PU's., at least my first, Ray's and most the guys I knew.

 

[Roger Davis]

Johhny Hawksworth was wonderful, Roger. Thanks for the reminder. You guys should look into him, if you can find anything. I loved the Ted Heath band when I was a kid. Johnny played very melodically with splendid chops and though I can't remember the drummers name, (Ronnie somebody?) they had a great hook-up and were very funny guys.

It was Ronnie Verrell, Paul. I was going to say he died last year but, on looking at Wikki, I am shocked to be reminded that it was in 2002. He was one of the very best drummers ever and this may interest you:-

Verrell also performed in several television shows, including The Muppet Show where he played drums for the show's manic puppet drummer, Animal.[1][2][5] When American drummer Buddy Rich, one of Verrell's heroes, guested on the show, Verrell (as Animal) had a drumming duel with Rich, and won after Animal smashed a snare drum over Rich's head.[4]

from Wikki

 

[Paul Warburton]

It was Ronnie Verrell, Paul. I was going to say he died last year but, on looking at Wikki, I am shocked to be reminded that it was in 2002. He was one of the very best drummers ever and this may interest you:-

Verrell also performed in several television shows, including The Muppet Show where he played drums for the show's manic puppet drummer, Animal.[1][2][5] When American drummer Buddy Rich, one of Verrell's heroes, guested on the show, Verrell (as Animal) had a drumming duel with Rich, and won after Animal smashed a snare drum over Rich's head.

The guys in Buddy's band bus woulda' loved that.

 

[Chris Symer]

Great stuff guys!

 

[Treyzer]

Thanks Chuck for the what really went down with O.P. Boy talk about making friends and influencing enemas! Thank you also Roger and Salcott for giving us some great insight on this topic. Wonderful stuff!

 

[iiipopes]

Speaking of Lionel Hampton and early Fender bass....
Lionel Hampton Tom Tom Solo - YouTube

 

[etoncrow]

...including The Muppet Show where he played drums for the show's manic puppet drummer, Animal. When American drummer Buddy Rich, one of Verrell's heroes, guested on the show, Verrell (as Animal) had a drumming duel with Rich, and won after Animal smashed a snare drum over Rich's head.

I began playing drums in 1959. Buddy Rich and Gene Krupa were my heros. I saw that episode of the Muppets several times. Thanks for sharing.

 

[NWB]

I would like to know why the original Tutmark bass never caught on in 1935?

Was it maybe a lack of decent amplification?

It seems the EB revolution could have started well before Fender "invented" the EB in 1951.

 

[Michael Case]

I started on BG and took up the DB around 1999. I spent some time back in NYC going ampless and have wondered how bassists back in the day did it. It is my opinion that the biggest downside of BG and amplification is that folks don't know how to listen and adjust to the people they are playing with. Most rock bands I was in when I was growing up, we always asked eachother to turn up. Nobody ever thought "if I can't hear the bass, mabye I'm too loud." I think playing DB and trying to go ampless really opened my eyes to that and has made me better when playing BG in a band.

 

[MR PC]

It is my opinion that the biggest downside of BG and amplification is that folks don't know how to listen and adjust to the people they are playing with.

Thank-you!

I went back and pulled out some old vinyl from the '60's.....Carol Kaye (Fender P) and Lyle Ritz (upright) playing together on Pet Sounds, (Beach Boys). Distinctive roles played in very beautiful music, brilliantly.

 

[MR PC]

I would like to know why the original Tutmark bass never caught on in 1935?

Was it maybe a lack of decent amplification?

It seems the EB revolution could have started well before Fender "invented" the EB in 1951.

Excellent point, I've sen a couple of examples of those early electric bass guitars. More than the lack of amps, it was the lack of proper strings I think. Their were some pretty powerful 80 watt 4 6L6 amps around, as well as good loud speakers too.

LLoyd Loar ran into the same problem ( and others) when he designed the first Electric Upright for Gibson in the twenties.

Leo Fender was well aware of others earlier attempts at designing and amplifying basses. He took the best and left the rest, that was his genius or dumb luck however you choose to look at it. Even his split P Bass pickup design was borrowed from "40's era Valco/Supro lap steels.

It really pissed off some upright players and some listeners in the 60's when the formula for amplifying bass started to come together. There have been a lot of growing pains around this. Whatever.

 

[chuck3]

Great thread, Paul and all.

I was born in '52 and can't remember a world without both upright and BG, so I can't address Paul's question but I would love to hear his stories. I grew up listening to a lot of both as my father was a huge jazz fan but I had older siblings who were rock n roll fans.

It's funny someone mentioned the Tonight Show band because even as a young person I remember thinking, when that show came on, how the bass guitar sounded different with a big band type ensemble than an upright would. It was very noticeable.

 

[SAlcott]

"......playing DB and trying to go ampless really opened my eyes to that and has made me better when playing BG in a band."

Yup.

__________________

 

[NWB]

I'm far too young to have any direct experience with the transition days of the sixties, but I find the stories and history very fascinating.

Thanks to all for sharing their insights.

 

[Don Higdon]

I'm late for this party, but being older than Paul (I know you don't think that's humanly possible), yeah, I was around when it happened.
First,

When did Les Paul invent the multi-track?
I can't seem to remember that one.

Evidently, he commissioned Ampex to build an 8 track recorder in 1955. Got that here:
Invalid Link Removed
It seems from this article and Wikipedia that the common use of multi-tracking in pop music didn't really take hold until the mid-sixties.

Les Paul had a huge hit when I was in high school, the multi track recording of How High the Moon, in 1951. Les was an inventor, and produced primitive versions of this stuff before the manufacturer's got there.
Les Paul & Mary Ford How High the Moon - YouTube
It was one of a series that he put out at the same time.

Les Paul & Mary Ford Show: World Is Waiting For The Sunrise - YouTube

 

[Don Higdon]

The lack of string players is also contributing to the rise in concert pitch as they struggle to get more volume.
Concert pitch - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Not quite. Concert pitch is pushed up at the behest of the violins, not for volume of sound, which is a matter of decibels, but for "brilliance" of the fiddles' sound, which is a matter of quality of sound, as a consequence of increased tension. At any volume, a fiddle at 420 would sound crappy.

 

[SAlcott]

Volume, brilliance, whatever the term, the problem remains. Today's orchestras just don't have enough strings to match in sheer output the exponential increase in efficiency that the brass instruments have undergone.

 

[Don Higdon]

Dare I point this out? One former TB member was right in the thick of things, playing jazz on DB and switching to BG back when it was getting off the ground: Ken Smith.