Double Bass The day the BG took over.

[Don Higdon]

Working from memory, one of the first to employ the Fender bass in a band was Dizzy Gillespie.
This raised eyebrows.
Paraphrasing, Dizzy was asked: "Don't you miss hearing the wood?"
Again paraphrasing, Dizzy replied: "Yeah, but I like hearing the bass."
I heard this in one of the 48th Street music shops (Manny's ?) where DB players were going to see this new thing. Late 50's-ish.

 

[Paul Warburton]

I'm late for this party, but being older than Paul (I know you don't think that's humanly possible), yeah, I was around when it happened.

Finally. After almost ten years together here @ TBDB, Dono admits in public.

I'm holding off on some of the stories because some might be misconstrued as a put-down to slabbers and we've already had one minor dust-up in here.
The short term effect of the change was negative because it took work away from the players who couldn't or wouldn't make the change. The long term was positive for the DB because, like Ray Brown, Milt Hinton and many other jazz DB players, they decided to commit themselves (Don't say it. I should decide to commit myself). to what they really loved....playing jazz and giving up the studio/show work.

 

[ChuckCorbis]

Dare I point this out? One former TB member was right in the thick of things, playing jazz on DB and switching to BG back when it was getting off the ground: Ken Smith.

I remember that Ken was apprenticing for Carl Thompson back in the 70's. Carl had a shop (and still does) on Court street at his house in Brooklyn. Carl's musical heros are Jim Hall, Johnny Smith and Jackie Paris. Carl was a jazz guitarist who made the switch to electric bass late. When you say in the thick of things, is this what you mean, Don? His apprenticeship with Carl Thompson?

 

[SAlcott]

Ken was active in the early 50s?

 

[Don Higdon]

Ken was active in the early 50s?

Yes, he was very active, because that's when he was born.
On the basis of what he's said, he was in the NYC scene in the late 60's. He did start on DB and switch later. I'm sure he played DB when he was with Silver.
Steve Swallow didn't switch until 1970: Cranshaw was playing DB in the 60's, I don't know what year he switched. In any event, there were not that many BG's in jazz for years after the Fender was introduced.

 

[MR PC]

Richard Davis tripled on Upright, Fender, and Ampeg Baby Bass when he was in NYC. He made lots of great recordings on all three instruments. I remember an old Downbeat interview with Professor Davis in which he tells of being yelled at on the street for committing to electric.

OK, the campfire is lit. Time for the children to roast marshmallows while the two old guys tell stories in the smoke and flames of the past......

 

[Treyzer]

The short term effect of the change was negative because it took work away from the players who couldn't or wouldn't make the change. The long term was positive for the DB because, like Ray Brown, Milt Hinton and many other jazz DB players, they decided to commit themselves (Don't say it. I should decide to commit myself). to what they really loved....playing jazz and giving up the studio/show work.

This has become a great discussion and the above portion of Paul's post makes quite a bit of sense. I've got a few points based on this post.

1) Change is always hard on a given set of workers economically but it is inevitable due to progress and innovation. This kind of change is an economic universal. If not, people would still be employed making buggy whips and wagon wheels. The drum machine put lots of drummers out of work and the synth took care of lots of string players and horn players. I'm not saying this is necessarily good, just inevitable.

2) The studio work for double bass players pretty much dried up. Contractors, producers and artists wanted to hear electric bass. So the decision to stop doing studio work was pretty much made for many double bassists. There was still a number of double bass working in the studio scene (Chuck Delmonico in L.A.) but not enough to support the many talented bassists who were then making a living off of this work.

3) The most interesting thing about this little foot note in musical history, at least to me, is that the cream rises to the top. Those players that were very good and very committed to playing double bass went back to a genre that the knew & loved (jazz) and stayed successful as musicians. Many others that were either not as talented or not as committed to the instrument found something else to do or something else to play.

 

[dhsierra1]

OK, the campfire is lit. Time for the children to roast marshmallows while the two old guys tell stories in the smoke and flames of the past......

Please do

FWIW, this doubler who started on BG will not take offense on any comments good, bad, or ugly on the slab so please just tell it as you see it PW. This stuff needs to be committed to "the record" for the rest of us to learn.

Thanks to all you "old timers", this is easily the best thread I've read yet on TB

 

[ChuckCorbis]

OK, the campfire is lit. Time for the children to roast marshmallows while the two old guys tell stories in the smoke and flames of the past......

The pyrotechnic in your post is making me nervous. Sounds like a ouija script my aunt use to use every 4th of July for our campfires at the cabana in Coney Island. She had that gypsy thing goin' on and she always managed to bring out the worst in whatever spirit was hanging around. Enough PC or I'll sick that baddass Nathan on you and in the words of our very own Chris Symer......."It won't be pretty."

 

[MR PC]

Chill Chuck. It's a family affair...strictly Smoky the Bear stuff. Relax, the yarns should be restorative.

 

[fingerbun]

Wonder if it is safe to post....be gentle with me, particularly with the next paragraph.

I have been a gigging electric player for maybe 35 years, and have been studying and playing upright for maybe four years. I like both. So I assume to some people in this thread I am evil personified.

My questions.

If the electric bass had not come along, but music had evolved anyway, would people have still been happy playing Beatles, Deep Purple, Police, Pearl Jam and so on on upright, or would the change in music have created the same problem as the change in instrument?

Related question. Do you see jazz as a monoculture? To me the Andrews Sisters are quite different from Mingus and different again from Weather Report. Is all jazz good?

On a modern recording the bass is clearly audible. On old 78rpms played on a wind-up phonograph not so audible. Is that a factor? (I know wind-ups were obsolete in the 50s...I don't know how audible basses were on an average record player then).

Is it all about jazz? I love upright in other musical styles (orchestral, folk, etc).

Could other technology advances be behind the resurgence of upright? IE being easier to amplify them and get a natural sound, travel basses designed to sound like an upright and be easier to transport.

What other advances in upright technology have occurred since 1950? I can think of a whole lot in electric - different scales, huge advances in string technology, 5 and 6 string instruments, different pickup types, different construction materials. How has upright advanced while all this was happening?

 

[Etchbass]

What an incredibly interesting thread. Only being 23, I never considered what it was like during the big transition. I have no personal experience to contribute obviously, but I will say that I have a tremendous amount of respect for you Paul, and the other musicians here on talkbass, who, like you, were also working musicians during that strange and difficult crossover period.

I honestly think that as a result of the Fender Bass, playing DB has become a commodity, and should be greatly appreciated.

Also, as a little side note, I've always wondered why the first Electric Slab Basses were fretted, that never made sense to me... although it has definitely helped out plenty of guys like me as far as playing with proper intonation... I think in the long run, learning DB would be EXTREMELY beneficial as far as ear training, and developing a very different thought process when playing, if that makes sense. I guess it must have been fretted using the logic that EB would be an all around easier bass to play, and it would make the transition easier for guitarists as well, thereby selling more Fender Basses.

 

[bassist1962]

Also, as a little side note, I've always wondered why the first Electric Slab Basses were fretted, that never made sense to me... although it has definitely helped out plenty of guys like me as far as playing with proper intonation... I think in the long run, learning DB would be EXTREMELY beneficial as far as ear training, and developing a very different thought process when playing, if that makes sense. I guess it must have been fretted using the logic that EB would be an all around easier bass to play, and it would make the transition easier for guitarists as well, thereby selling more Fender Basses.

This was Leo Fender's thinking as well. There were many guitarist who doubled of bass, and with the marketable EBG, things got a lot easier for them to do so. He named his invention the 'Precision' because as many have pointed out here - intonation is a big factor. With frets the bassist could play with 'precision' intonation wise. I read some where that Leo was asked who he marketed the instrument for specificly. His answer was 'Whoever has the required $250 to buy it'.

 

[bassist1962]

If the electric bass had not come along, but music had evolved anyway, would people have still been happy playing Beatles, Deep Purple, Police, Pearl Jam and so on on upright, or would the change in music have created the same problem as the change in instrument?

I eventually came to realize that the first three bassists I listened to were actually guitarist who switced due to economics within the bands. I have often wondered if that switch would have occured had the BG not been around, and the DB was the instrument to play. Also how do/did those guitarist feel about the switch to a different instrument (guitar to bass)? I do know that all three of them played guitar on recordings for either the band they are known for playing in, or in later bands in their careers.

 

[Paul Warburton]

We're getting into the territory of why I posted this Thread, judging from the last few good posts. The Q & A thing, IMO, works well, as I mentioned about my Bill Evans & Red Mitchell posts and Threads.
So, did the music change because of the advent of the Fender BG and the Fender Rhodes piano or did those instruments change the music?
First person to answer those questions gets a free pizza from Don Higdon.

Story: I was out in L.A. working with Cal Tjader about the time Red Mitchell decided to move to Stockholm. Cal asked if i'd talked to Red yet and I said no, not yet. He said "Man, he's using an amp and tuning in fifths!" I about shat, naturally, and went down to Shelly's Manne Hole where Red was working with Mose Alison that night. Red sounded as beautiful as ever but was having problems finding the right strings for the 5th switch, that he did in an unbelievable nine days. We hung while he was changing strings on a break and he told me he was leaving. The big reason was his political activist activity concerning the Martin Luther King and the Kennedy's assasinations and the racist stuff going on in that area during this period. Also, his house was right down the street from where the LaBianca/Tate murders went down. He had many black friends and had been "harrased" by the police who were watching his neighborhood. Another reason was that a big part of his studio calls were involving the Fender.

Teaser: Same period in the L.A. studio scene: Enter Ray Brown, who leaves the Oscar Peterson Trio to move to L.A.

 

[arnoldschnitzer]

In the 1970s when I was actively playing (both URB and Slab) I would get lots of calls from mostly second-tier big bands around NY, because I had a reputation for reading well (and my time feel and sound were ok). They pretty much all wanted Electric Bass. I even spent time on the road with the old crooner Vic Damone, and he specified slab too. So did Gap and Chuck Mangione (I toured with Gap, as did our friend Steve Alcott). But nowadays every big band I hear or see live has an URB player. And rarely do I hear a slab on Sirius/XM "Real Jazz". Has the switchover reversed?

 

[forester]

Isaac Hays once said the fender precision was the single most influential instrument to modern music.

pepperoni please.

 

[Don Higdon]

So, did the music change because of the advent of the Fender BG and the Fender Rhodes piano or did those instruments change the music?
First person to answer those questions gets a free pizza from Don Higdon.

Yes and no.
A huge cultural revolution was under way simply because of the coming of age of the baby boomer generation and its wholesale rejection of most social norms. Music was destined to change. On the other hand, Fender was a significant enabler of the form that developed. Finally, bar owners were happy not to have buy and maintain a piano and a PA system. These factors fed on one another.
I think.
I just answered so I don't have to buy anybody a pizza.

I'm a Jersey guy. Somewhere between '58 and '62, I met and worked with a local drummer, Joey Cass. He liked my playing, called me for gigs, and was always asking me if I'd buy a Fender bass. I was very reluctant. Joey stopped calling. He was soon picked up by another Jersey guy - Frankie Valli - and he became part of the Four Seasons touring group.
Joey made more money than I ever did.

 

[Chris Symer]

So enjoying this thread! After hearing so much BS about newbies feeling unwelcome, it's great to finally have a thread going where players with a lot of history are feeling moved to post. Keeping them feeling welcome should be a consideration for the site as well IMO.
Don, you say you were "very reluctant" to buy a Fender Bass. Does this mean that you never did, or you gave it a try for a bit and just didn't dig it? Early on I would imagine that the music hadn't changed much and could be played on either instrument. It took a while for the Fender to come into its own, and as the music changed a real separation between what people did with the two instruments begain to develope, correct?

 

[Treyzer]

......They pretty much all wanted Electric Bass. I even spent time on the road with the old crooner Vic Damone, and he specified slab too. So did Gap and Chuck Mangione (I toured with Gap, as did our friend Steve Alcott)......

Man, such a small world. When I was playing with Larry Carlton I met Gap and Chuck. I think Gap was staying at Larry's house and Larry was producing some sides for him. I seem to remember a few recording sessions with Gap. I don't recall if they ever saw the light of day. Very nice guy. BTW, I was playing eeelectric with Larry and on those dates!

P.S. This is a great thread with great posts. It's nice to see TalkBassDoubleBass hopefully moving in this direction!