Double Bass The day the BG took over.

[Treyzer]

Did Carol Kaye ever play upright? Carol Kaye Trailer - YouTube

Carol was and is a friend of mine. More importantly, she was a teacher and mentor. Per Carol, she was a jazz guitarist prior to picking up the bass. Per wikipedia, "Kaye played bebop jazz guitar in dozens of nightclubs around Los Angeles with many noted bands including Bob Neal's jazz group, Jack Sheldon backing Lenny Bruce, Teddy Edwards and Billy Higgins." To the best of my recollection she never played the double bass.

 

[MR PC]

What/which kind of bass did Godzilla play the day he took over the world?

Godzilla 50 years tribute! - YouTube

 

[Anonymatt]

I have two questions for our elders:

Quincy Jones said somewhere that the EB was helpful to producers because bad intonation was a common problem. (Maybe this problem was highlighted by increasing fidelity in recording) Does anyone have anything to say about the skill of an average bassist in the 50s?

Even though there's plenty of EB in jazz, I don't feel like this conversation is meant to be about jazz. Was there ever a period during the late 60s when people believed that there would be a "mass exodus" (sounds too dramatic...) to EB among jazz players? Like, "Oh, Miles is into it, so here it comes..."?

The switch from DB to EB in the pop world seems to be completely rational and practical on the part of the general musical population and for the individuals whose gigs predominantly switched to EB. I don't feel there's any mystery there; it must be the same thing that motivates doublers today.

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

I was trying to think of the book on this subject by Jim Roberts

 

[Matthijs]

The same goes for the Pops Foster book, who goes into discussion about the change from tuba to double bass.

I'm interested in this. I always thought the Tuba is a relative young instrument, dating from the 19th century. Is this specificaly about the role of tuba in jazz in the US?

 

[ee-san]

Carol was and is a friend of mine. More importantly, she was a teacher and mentor. Per Carol, she was a jazz guitarist prior to picking up the bass. Per wikipedia, "Kaye played bebop jazz guitar in dozens of nightclubs around Los Angeles with many noted bands including Bob Neal's jazz group, Jack Sheldon backing Lenny Bruce, Teddy Edwards and Billy Higgins." To the best of my recollection she never played the double bass.

Carol Kaye often used to contribute to the old Bottom Line bass discussion list where she told several stories about her change to electric bass and the lucrative studio work it afforded. In my understanding, she never stopped playing guitar and did some studio work on that instrument also. As she tells it, several working double bass players visited her for lessons and tips on Fender bass, including Ray Brown, as the writing on the walls seemed to indicate that proficiency on the slab would be important in future work. I never had the impression, however, that Ray Brown ever needed the Fender bass to get work. Maybe those who knew him better can complete that story.

 

[Paul Barsic]

Quincy Jones said somewhere that the EB was helpful to producers because bad intonation was a common problem. (Maybe this problem was highlighted by increasing fidelity in recording) Does anyone have anything to say about the skill of an average bassist in the 50s?

While he started out as a jazz musician, Quincy Jones is the guy who produced hits such as "Judy's Turn To Cry". If the bass guitar allowed producers to more easily crank out music like that, then yaaay bass guitars.

I don't mean to lay a bunch of hate on Jones. After all, he did father Rashida Jones, so nice work there.

 

[Paul Warburton]

You're all missing one thing here. The fact that most DB players were not using an amp when the BG came into fashion. Does that open up the discussion?

 

[Eric Hochberg]

You're all missing one thing here. The fact that most DB players were not using an amp when the BG came into fashion. Does that open up the discussion?

A major point, I sure missed it...

 

[Ed Fuqua]

Well, it's hard to get a big sound with guts on a Fender.

 

[SAlcott]

You're all missing one thing here. The fact that most DB players were not using an amp when the BG came into fashion. Does that open up the discussion?

Great point, PW! The amplified bass guitar, which BTW originally had gut strings with metal windings over the magnetic pickup and gutta percha bridge saddles (Leo wanted it to thump) brought the idea (and, unfortunately, the necessity) of making the acoustic bass louder as well. Another thought I've had for a long time re volume in music is this: I'm a former low brass player. When I look at band pictures from the 40s-60s, one of the first things I notice is the size of the trumpets and trombones. A bass trombone the size of Quentin Jackson's when he played with Basie in the 50s would be a lead instrument today. It's the same in the symphonic world as well, IMO. Brass and woodwind instruments have been improved and made more efficient while string players are using 200 year old fiddles. An orchestra today should have (again, IMO) at least 25-30% more string players to balance with modern winds. Back to the "other" world, a 50s drumset had calf heads and a drummer who had never had to bash to keep up volumewise. Amplification of individual instruments (as opposed to PA type sound reinforcement) made all the difference, for better or worse.

 

[bejoyous]

It's the same in the symphonic world as well, IMO. Brass and woodwind instruments have been improved and made more efficient while string players are using 200 year old fiddles. An orchestra today should have (again, IMO) at least 25-30% more string players to balance with modern winds.

Around here, it seems the new standard for orchestras is to have only half of the required string players needed for the big works then have the conductor yell at the strings to play louder so they can be heard over the wall of brass. It is not uncommon to do works like Shosti 5 or Tchaik 5 or Beethoven 9 or Pictures at an Ex with 3 or 4 basses.

Also, what's a gutta percha bridge saddle?

 

[Ed Fuqua]

About $15 here. Why, what do they charge in Canada?

 

[SAlcott]

Around here, it seems the new standard for orchestras is to have only half of the required string players needed for the big works then have the conductor yell at the strings to play louder so they can be heard over the wall of brass. It is not uncommon to do works like Shosti 5 or Tchaik 5 or Beethoven 9 or Pictures at an Ex with 3 or 4 basses.

Also, what's a gutta percha bridge saddle?

The lack of string players is also contributing to the rise in concert pitch as they struggle to get more volume.
Concert pitch - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Gutta-percha - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia I'm pretty sure this is the material used for the bridge saddles on the first P basses-if not it was something very much like it.

 

[Paul Warburton]

So, here we are, DB pizz players; most of the guys I knew were playing Lycon steels with very high bridge adjustments to pump out the sound sans amps. All of a sudden, we're told that if we want to stay employed in recording session work and shows we have to switch to the Fender. I had a bass buddy in Reno named Chuck DaLora (Snake was his nickname). We decided to buddy up and see if we could do this together. We got a Fender (before fretless) and an amp and gave it a shot. No dice. The playing angle was wrong and we could not, not dig in. We way over played the instrument phyisically because the amp was too sensitve for guys who were used to digging in on an unamped DB. I think Snake broke the Fender in the end.
Somebody mentioned Ray Brown. He told me that the advent of the BG was what made him decide to give up the L.A. studio stuff and was what made him return to playing jazz. He considered it a blessing for that reason.

 

[Marty Forrer]

I'm the other way around. I played BG from 1963 to 1989, then took up DB. I doubled until recently, but noticed that my BG gigs have tailed off, and now it's about 95% DB. As there's not too many DB players where I live, I suspect it may be a novelty factor.

 

[bassist1962]

The playing angle was wrong and we could not, not dig in. We way over played the instrument phyisically because the amp was too sensitve for guys who were used to digging in on an unamped DB.

When my parents finally decided to finance a Fender (after learning the basics on DB at dad's insistince) I ended up breaking strings, caving in pickups, etc.. It took several years to lighten up on the instrument, and I had only played the DB for a year at that point. This is one of the reasons I use a pick (much to the chagrin of many a guitarist and other musicians I have played with and met throughout my life) on the slab.

 

[SAlcott]

"The playing angle was wrong and we could not, not dig in. We way over played the instrument phyisically because the amp was too sensitve for guys who were used to digging in on an unamped DB."

Yup. That totally makes sense. I think guys like me who may have started on regular guitar, moved to bass guitar, then to upright bass have less of an issue than those who started on upright. When I put on the BG, my muscles go into horizontal mode; the upright puts me into vertical mode. The music part of me stays the same; try to make it feel good for everyone in the band, no matter what the axe or style being played.

 

[Treyzer]

This is directed to those who might know about the use of amps in the 1950's or earlier. I can't remember where i read this, and I probably have some of the facts wrong, but it seems to me Oscar Pettiford was using an amp in New York in the 1950's.
It seems he had a pretty big argument with someone in his band about his amp's volume. Does this sound right? Were any amps in use for the double bass in the 1950's?

 

[ChuckCorbis]

JAZZ FROM CARNEGIE HALL

In September 1958, as part of a Norman Granz package billed as Jazz from Carnegie Hall, he toured Britain and the continent. In this concert troupe, which brought together Zoot Sims, Lee Konitz, J. J. Johnson, Kai Winding, Oscar Pettiford and Kenny Clarke, Phineas (Newborn Jr.) had little to do since most of the piano chores were handled by Red Garland. … I caught the Carnegie Show in Birmingham on Friday, 19 September, 1958 … But, strangely, my main memory of that evening is of the problems Oscar Pettiford was experiencing with his cello amplifier which was overloud and distorting. O.P. spent the interval attempting to effect running affairs. In September, 1958 he came to Europe as part of a package show called 'Jazz From Carnegie Hall' (...). Oscar lugged an enormous amplifier and speaker on stage to the annoyance of his fellow musicians. I attended a concert at which Lee Konitz came out to play a set accompanied only by bass and drums. As Konitz started to play, Oscar leaned over and opened up the volume on the amplifier to the point where it appeared that Lee was playing an obbligato to a continuous bass solo. Tempers frayed during the tour and at the last concert Oscar's amplifier was out of commission; it was reported that someone had removed the valves." - Max Jones, writing in the Melody Maker in 1960, recalled: "OP was not overcome with admiration for that package and expressed his views freely with vehemence." Jones mentioned one of the concerts, where "a deal of off-the-cuff action over microphones took place between OP, Lee Konitz, and Zoot Sims. Feelings were aroused, and when the bass amplifier was silent for the final show, rumor had it that someone had removed Pettiford's valves."

OSCAR PETTIFORD 1957-1960