Double Bass The day the BG took over.

[Stick_Player]

... then the "Fender Bass" was side-lined, in the 80s, for the Bass Synthsizer.

I play 'em all, plus the Stick. Very Feng shui, dontcha know?

 

[PhiDeck]

According to his Wikipedia page, Bill Black first recorded playing a Fender Precision in 1957, on Elvis Presley's "Jailhouse Rock".

I've read elsewhere that the first recording of a Precision was by Monk Montgomery w/Lionel Hampton, in 1953. However, the album is never identified. Does anyone know its name?

 

[john allemond]

The story I read about Monk is that he was playing DB with Lionel Hampton and Hamp handed him a Fender and said "I want this sound in my band". I believe it was in a Guitar Player magazine interview, and I think the year Monk gave was '51 or '52. John

 

[ChuckCorbis]

I don't know if this is true but in terms of Television in New York in the early 60s, there was a guy I used to play with in late 70s and 80s named Julie Ruggiero who many said was the first to play the Fender bass in the Tonight Show band in the early 60s. I met pianist Ross Tompkins about 10 years ago and he indicated that he thought Julie was the first on the Show to play it. I thought Ross joined the band in L.A. in the 70s. Anybody know if this is so about Ruggiero or the exact date?

 

[Nathan Parker]

Nathan Parker, are you paying attention?

Damn, I missed this one. I better go raise my bridge a few more turns to compensate. That'll show 'em!

 

[SAlcott]

I use the double bass to play the music that demands it. I do the same with bass guitar.

 

[Mayers]

I didn't know anything about the story behin the day BG took over DB for pop record. So that was nice.

I play both because I like the sound of a DB and because I like classical music. My biggest hero is John Patitucci who plays both.

Right now I like a lot more classical music, there is much more interesting stuff to play on DB like Bottesini or Dragonetti than the standart pop/funk/rock stuff that I find very boring.

 

[calshands]

Like I said - just my opinion, but to me it is part of the whole 'unplugged' scene, or some well known BG player has taken up DB, and to seem just as 'cool', some fan decides to take the plunge. It's okay if you decide to become a student of the instrument, but to get one and think you can actually play it right from the start just because you have played the BG...It's gonna take awhile.

I play both. Started on ABG, got an EBG, and then wanted to be heard when I played in my acoustic groups and wanted that SOUND so I got a DB. Entirely self -taught (and my poor skills prove that!) but found that the first day I played my DB I just GOT it... I ould play that thing, and it was more intuitive than the others.

Though I still play the instrument that best serves the group I am playing with.

So. Two years and 7 mos later, I am hoping that sometime soon -- when the school/childcare costs go down? or something?!?! -- I can get some lessons.

That's my story and I am sticking with it.

 

[iiipopes]

I am lucky to be in a band and be on call with a few folks for all three: tuba, DB & EB. I've played EB since 1976 when I was 14 years old in summer jazz band camp and learned how to read charts on the fly (handed my first charts on a Monday morning, played a concert that Friday evening). But here's where it's really interesting: the jazz band I play with now had EB players for years and years. Good players. They sounded fine, and the band sounded fine. They hire me. I play the charts well. But the more I play with them, the more I start to feel something is "missing." I realised that with the push and sustain of the EB, some of the swing charts sounded "pushed" or "edgy." So I changed from my "straight ahead" EB style with roundwounds. After a few months of experimenting with EB flat strings, shoving foam rubber under the bridge cover, different techniques, no compression, etc., it still just wasn't happening. So I went out and purchased a CCB with the $$ I could afford, spent several months getting it set up, finding a good set of used Spiros, Full Circle, new amp, practicing my @$$ off, and finally took it to a rehearsal after talking to the band leader about it. The character of the band immediately changed, and the swing charts started to really swing again.

This same band had an Independence Day gig a couple of years ago, and the tuba was indispensible for the Sousa marches and such. It just would not have happened well on either DB or EB. What I have mostly learned from 35+ years of playing everything from garage bands to national TV, from Friday night to Sunday morning, bars, shows, pits, church, even Dixieland funerals, is that each instrument has its place and its gigs. For the average guy like me who still earns income primarily from a day job, I really encourage a player to learn to play all three to be most available for the most number of possible gigs.

 

[Eric Hochberg]

Just curious, why turn a very interesting thread on a specific subject into something completely different?

 

[ChuckCorbis]

My first Thread Topic in a while.

I'm one of the older persons here and one of the few players who never "went over" or even ever played a gig on the bass guitar.
I was around (actually, living in Vegas, playing a lot of shows) when the **** hit the fan in terms of the impact the advent of the slab had on us double bassists who were predominantely pizz players, so I thought it might be an interesting topic, especially to younger slabbists and doublers who aren't aware of some of the history involved during that period which, at least in Vegas, was about 1966. I know Leo Fender actually brought the Fender bass guitar onto the scene in the early 50's, but the true impact wasn't really felt for us until the former date. I did a search and found some TB threads alluding to this topic but none that had some players that actually were around during that huge transition.
It was pretty interesting and I have some stories about the impact on us "upright" players, financially and artistically, during the period, including the name of the best known DBer who did the switch in terms of recording, at least.

EDIT: I'll try not to get grouchy, pissed or make fun of any posts that may come in, including those of slabbers.

Paul doesn't remember this, but he was kind enough to walk me through the use of the quote function here on Talkbass so I'll use it here to get us back on track Eric.

 

[Ed Fuqua]

I think this is from Bill Crow's column:
Jimmy Rowles receives a Grammy for Lifetime Achievement and in the rush of interviews backstage someone, who doesn't really know Jimmy or anything about him, asks "After such a long career in music, do you have any regrets?" And Jimmy replies, without pause, "Yeah, I regret having not burned down the Fender factory..."

 

[SAlcott]

Just curious, why turn a very interesting thread on a specific subject into something completely different?

I don't see it as a takeover, but as an evolution. When the Fender bass appeared, new music was starting to happen, and the Fender bass (not to mention the electric guitar) was part of that evolution. I love the upright for what it does best; likewise the bass guitar, and I endeavor to use each appropriately.

 

[Treyzer]

I don't see it as a takeover, but as an evolution. When the Fender bass appeared, new music was starting to happen, and the Fender bass (not to mention the electric guitar) was part of that evolution. I love the upright for what it does best; likewise the bass guitar, and I endeavor to use each appropriately.

Salcott, This is pretty much spot on. I for one did not think that the purpose of this thread was to find the first guy who played the porkchop in a jazz setting and then verbally tar and feather him.

Like it or not, music and musical tastes have and are continually changing. This fact can be observed throughout the history of western music. There are not too many people that are playing lutes these days. Why is that? Jazz, at one time, as most of us know, was considered to be the popular music of its' day. Then it became a niche market and it is so to this day.

Look, I love jazz and love playing the double bass. However, I'm not going to be misanthropic regarding the Fender bass and what it's brought to the table. In the late 50's early 60's, record companies, band leaders, producers and many very good musicians began to see the musical possibilities of the Fender bass. Carol Kaye was a guitarist who switched to Fender bass and became a very successful L.A. studio musician, changing the way bass was heard on records in the process. Jamie Jamerson was a double bassist who switched to the fender electric bass and created some amazing syncopated bass lines which came to be known as the Motown sound. These players, and many others, helped contribute and expand what bass players could do in other settings besides jazz.

Personally, I still would much rather hear double bass in most jazz music settings although Jaco Pastorious did blaze a pretty incredible path and showed us how an electric bass could do some pretty interesting things in the right hands.

Why do some of us seem so misanthropic regarding electric bass? The Fender has ben around for over 50 years. It is what it is. Some on this forum may not like the Fender (electric) bass but I fail to see how this changes anything. Maybe this thread is just supposed to be a big bitch session. If so, in the immortal words of Yogi Berra, "count me out".

 

[Huy Nguyen]

I wonder how the Viola da Gamba players felt when DB took over and did things like add heavier strings or add the 4th string.

 

[Zerofox Kitsune]

It was pretty interesting and I have some stories about the impact on us "upright" players, financially and artistically, during the period, including the name of the best known DBer who did the switch in terms of recording, at least.

I'd be pretty interested in hearing some stories.

It's okay if you decide to become a student of the instrument, but to get one and think you can actually play it right from the start just because you have played the BG...It's gonna take awhile.

As someone who started out on the porkchop (I dig the name, Treyzer) I have to agree. I'm still very new to the instrument, as I've only been playing it for eight months, but I can feel and hear the difference. Curiously, I feel as if I have more 'control' over what comes out of the double bass, even though my intonation leaves something to be desired. I still pick up the porkchop sometimes, and I find I approach it in a completely different manner. While I was never a TAB reader, I no longer think in terms of frets with notes. I now think of positions and notes.

I didn't take up the double bass to be 'cool', though. I don't think kids who like classical and jazz music are generally perceived as 'cool'. I took it up because I loved the sound, and I also wanted to pursue music academically.

Jamie Jamerson was a double bassist who switched to double bass and created some amazing syncopated bass lines which came to be known as the Motown sound.

I think you meant to type he switched to the Fender/Electric bass. Link Removed

 

[ChuckCorbis]

Electric PLAYERS are a sensitive bunch. My lord. God forbid a legit double bassist comes along who can put you guys in their back pocket. Oh my. The sky is falling! Ha. Brother. This conversation always turns into a competition. I play my double bass because I like the unamplified sound. That's all. Yeah I admit when things get loud out comes a Fender. But I think people gravitate to a certain instrument because it suits them. It's their voice. I also play my share of electric guitar. Another voice. It is interesting how BG displaced the DB though. It's hard to get to the bottom of what actually happened. I know the usual line but that doesn't add up. There are alot of reasons for what happened that are glossed over. I know Julie Ruggiero liked the Fender also because he could hop in a cab in NYC and fly to 3 gigs/sessions a day without carrying the double bass around. He packed up in 30 seconds. He used a tiny amp as well. I think Fender players kind of sold the idea to the producers as well. Bob Cranshaw talks about his DB like it was a monster that needed to be tamed. He talks about his arthritis and an accident he had. Well, electric was Bob's voice I think. He can say what he wants but he doesn't care for the DB and neither did Julie. And that's O.K. All these guys dropped the DB as soon as they started the electric.......Jaco included. If they really liked the DB they would have continued but they didn't. I know. Fender can pay the bills but that's what this thread is addressing. I wonder what came first. The demand for the Fender bass or the bassists wanting to switch for the aforementioned reasons.


EDIT - I stand corrected. I pulled out an Ira Sullivan album and on one of the cuts Jaco plays double bass!

 

[Matthijs]

I wonder what came first. The demand for the Fender bass or the bassists wanting to switch for the aforementioned reasons.
QUOTE]

Very interesting question. I also wonder what was the deciding factor: the ability to get loud or the different sound. If this was just about being able to get loud, wouldnt Leo have invented the EUB?

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

I heard in my youth (from David Baker, I think) that Monk Montgomery was one of the first in jazz to make the switch. Ron Carter plays BG on a cut on Miles in the Sky from 1967.

Ron Carter played BG on "Red Clay" with Freddie Hubbard.

That was later - 1970 - but he still sounds uncomfortable!

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

Very interesting question. I also wonder what was the deciding factor: the ability to get loud or the different sound. If this was just about being able to get loud, wouldnt Leo have invented the EUB?

I read a book called the history of the Fender bass and the thing that people haven't mentioned is that it allowed guitarists to play bass and you could save money on a session!

The story I heard was that "Tic Tac" bass in Nashville
sessions originally involved hiring and paying a DB player and a guitarist. But with the advent of the Fender bass - they realised they only need pay one player!