The ethics of Kemper profiling amps

[Pat C.]

It's kind of odd that the 30 minute rant is based on the assumed condition that Kemper does a perfect 100% profile on other the amps, which the person goes to remind us many times throughout the video that he is not impressed, so his opinion is that it does not. The person goes to name drop a bunch of people that he has befriended on the amplifier industry, so his argument favors the amplifier companies that are losing money due to profiling.

Even if he doesn't like the product, a lot of people do so his argument is relevant in terms of the marketplace.

Anyways, the is all great because it gives us, the consumers more options.

It doesn't necessarily give more options. Those options are already out there. It's just that nobody is going to take on the expense of purchase every damn amp on the market. It makes getting those options more convenient.

So this discussion is similar to the "support your local orchestra" argument. You have to support your local orchestra because they need fundings to survive or else we will no longer have orchestra concerts; it will be a dying art. Well I think the people have spoken, the public chose to pay $100 to hear Justin Beiber than to pay to hear the orchestra.

I don't see an equivalence here. Orchestra's are dying because people aren't interested in going to see them. The folks going to see Bieber don't care about seeing an orchestra. He's an entirely different "product".

But the guitarist purchasing a Kemper cares very much about the Engl, or Boogie, and all those amps the he wants to profile. He is looking for that exact product, only to not have to pay for it, or deal with the logistics of having to carry all those amps around. The original amp maker gets no credit or compensation for the R&D involved nor from the implementation of the physical form that enables that amp's sound (it's profile) to exist.

If it was truly illegal to profile amps, than those companies would have sued Kemper already, if they haven't already done so.

I doubt it's illegal under any current law. The question raised was 'is it ethical'. My vote is no.

 

[twistd]

There is nothing unethical about this technology. You can't copyright/patent/trademark an amps "sound". Just because it sounds like a Soldano/Mesa/Fender, whatever does not matter. It's like someone recording a sample with an amp, and then playing the sample at their show. Nothing wrong with that. However, buying an amp for the sole purpose of profiling it, and then returning it is wrong.

Many guys that are using these are using dozens of amp/cab/pedal board combinations in each show. In the real world, most bands can't bring a semi loaded with amps and cabs to each show. It is a powerful tool that allows artists to expand their sonic palette. Are amp makers being hurt? Maybe on the fringe now, but they need to get with the program as fewer physical examples will need to exist going forward. This type of digital disruption is a fact of modern day life and is touching every industry. Probably true for demand for basses too, but should be a separate thread.

 

[chadds]

Oh, and by the way, Why don't players relic amps?

They do. You could buy new tweeds with cigarette burns and aged lacquer on them twenty years ago.

 

[chadds]

And this is why the amp builders/companies won't really be negatively affected by the modeling dealios.

And the people utilize the modeling probably wouldn't have bough the real thing(s) anyways, so...

An expert acoustic guitarist was swayed to purchase a Line 6 because of all the tonal options. What she needed was a Deluxe Reverb. The GC salesman said, "oh that's what all the kids want." It was hard to find the 5w Marshalls there because, Line 6 is what all the kids want.

They also want Mp3s.......

 

[Red Planet]

Didn't watch the video but the future is digital, as digital amp, cab and effect emulation will be impossible to distinguish (feel and sound) from analog. We are almost there.

They have been saying "it's almost there" for 30 years. There is no substitute for the real experience verses the virtual one thus the real deal will always be here as will the modelers.

 

[twistd]

They have been saying "it's almost there" for 30 years. There is no substitute for the real experience verses the virtual one thus the real deal will always be here as will the modelers.

Sure, tube amps will exist through my lifetime, but plenty of touring pros now use Kemper/Fractal for shows and recording. Fifty years from now they will be a collectible oddity like a typewriter.

 

[VinnyIuspa]

I agree with the people saying that other amp makers need to catchup with the times. This is what technology has made possible now, if amp companies are scared about becoming obsolete or out of favor they should innovate or come out with something similar. If they can't take the heat they should get out of the kitchen, since chances are they are basing their sound off of a pre-existing amp/pedal/guitar anyway.

I mean, copying a sound? Get real. What if I dial in an svt like sound on a different amp? Seems every amp/pedal/guitar out there is trying to cop a sound, and it ain't new. As players we're always trying to emulate the kinds of tones we hear and like. If one kemper can get you pretty close to hundreds of different amps whilst being a fraction of the price, to many that would be the better value. Obviously it's not going to satisfy someone who is only into tube amps.

The technology should keep improving, I myself look forward to the day when I can put my tone into my pocket next to my phone. Better yet, maybe it could be in my phone, and have 1000s of different profiles to choose from. When that day comes maybe traditional amp companies will go the way of the dinosaur for the most part. I say, good. Keep moving forward.

As for people buying amps and then returning them, that happens all of the time anyway. There will always be people who abuse return policies and try to take advantage. It sucks, but there's nothing you can do to stop it since not allowing returns would alienate honest customers. Take some small comfort in the fact that many retailers take advantage of and abuse customers in other ways.

 

[Antisyzygy]

Profiling an amp isn't unethical. It's not like copying a book or an audio clip or making a copy of a patented design. You're analyzing a sound wave and producing a mathematical model that approximates it's features. No one can own mathematical models.

What is unethical is buying something with the intent of returning it later. It doesn't matter what the product is, if you buy it you shouldn't be buying it with the express purpose of returning it. It's a dishonest way of conducting business.

 

[Red Planet]

Sure, tube amps will exist through my lifetime, but plenty of touring pros now use Kemper/Fractal for shows and recording. Fifty years from now they will be a collectible oddity like a typewriter.

No they will still be around. A typewriter is a lot different than a tube amp. A tube amp is organic a typewriter is not. Thats like saying sex will only be virtual in the future, nothing wrong with new pleasure explorations but no substitute for the real thing.

 

[onlyclave]

An expert acoustic guitarist was swayed to purchase a Line 6 because of all the tonal options. What she needed was a Deluxe Reverb. The GC salesman said, "oh that's what all the kids want." It was hard to find the 5w Marshalls there because, Line 6 is what all the kids want.

They also want Mp3s.......

Well you know about 5 times a week in the Basses thread someone asks "What's the most versatile bass for X?" Maybe she didn't want to be tied down by a Deluxe Reverb.

 

[twistd]

No they will still be around. A typewriter is a lot different than a tube amp. A tube amp is organic a typewriter is not. Thats like saying sex will only be virtual in the future, nothing wrong with new pleasure explorations but no substitute for the real thing.

I never said they were going away. Technology will only succeed if it's better. I own several tube amps and love them, though I think they will be easily emulated in the future, with more versatility and dynamics (players can virtually swap tubes and amps mid song). It's not virtual sex, but better sex.

 

[beans-on-toast]

The licensing fee/royalty is usually paid for the use of trademarks, not for any intellectual property inherent to the sound of the equipment itself. It's a lot easier to sell a plugin called "Ampeg SVX" than one called "this cool plugin that sounds like a popular bass amp".

No question the brand identification helps sell these products.

Apple's Logic Pro X has amp plugins that use a close likeness to Ampeg, Marshall, etc amps but don't state that they are emulating those products. The image of the amp makes it perfectly clear which amps they are talking about.

In the case of digital audio workstation plugins sold by waves.com, sometimes the product is under license from (Solid State Logic) other times it is developed in association with (for example Abbey Road). So as you said, could be trademarks but in other cases there is intellectual property involved.

In the case of Eventide, they have products with algorithms running on digital signal processors, there are plugins that use the algorithms so intellectual property is involved.

The important point is that both companies are benefiting from the sale of these plugins.

 

[Funk³]

So, are you saying that there is really no need to go out and buy , say, a Fender Twin, that the preset of it is already available ? I admit I don't have much interest in modeling devices, but the subject is interesting when people point fingers at someone doing what seems to be encouraged by the very device itself, namely, copying the sound of an amp so you don't actually have to buy the amp itself. Or am I way off ?

The preset will definitely be available for a popular amp like that, but if your buddy wants the profile of a custom, vintage Dumble which you had custom-specc'd, then that's when you'd really want to get into profiling the amp.

My opinion is this:

Touring guitarists who use lots of amps in the studio, or maybe a very rare and vintage Marshall or Fender may want to invest in getting a Kemper so they can tour easily.

People who buy a Kemper and THEN want to hire out or buy-and-return amps shouldn't, because great patches are already available.

 

[CGremlin]

We have this great forum for bassist, Talkbass of course, but I am unaware of a forum for tuba players. Since it's unfair for the tuba players worldwide, so should we boycott Talkbass unless there are more tuba forums?

No need! TubeNet has been around forever to cater to us.

It's been interesting to see where this discussion has led. Personally, I don't think the amp manufacturers are in any danger - while there are a lot of folks that would use a Kemper to consolidate a lot of different sounds into a single box, they're expensive, and there are plenty of other folks that share the opinion of many here that there's no substitute for the real thing. After all, there are lots of Precision and Jazz clones out there, but for many only Fender will do...

 

[Funk³]

I may as well say why I myself went for a modelling amp (Axe-FX) over a high-end guitar or bass amp.

Profilers are fantastic, as they reduce the need for a pedalboard, for mic'ing up cabs for recording, for purchasing amp heads, cabinets, and mics, for having to have two rigs if you play guitar and bass (which I do), and best of all, the patches are pretty damn close to the original, and you can easily find incredible sounds out of the box.

An Axe-FX will set you back thousands, but considering the amount of money you'd spend on an amp head, cab, mic setup, pedalboard, cables, and the man hours of setting everything, they are a fantastic investment.

 

[Jim C]

The OP said that he felt the Kemper was capable of making an exact copy of an amp.
I’ve never tried one, but the other modeling amp I heard were not very close approximations.

Not to doubt the OP, but curious if anyone here has actually used or owned one.

Agreed with a previous post that the idea of buying to try with no real commitment is just plain wrong.
I used to own a mail order business and I can tell you that when the same guy buys and returns products more than once it hurts all involved except him.
We finally have both the Subway and Magellan amps in town.
I will try both and buy one.
I just couldn’t justify buying both knowing that one would go back.
Why would I want to hurt the seller and the manufacturers knowing how hard they work to design, manufacture, and distribiute good gear for us?

 

[Red Planet]

People have been saying for years tube amps are on the ropes and will be replaced, those same people also chase Wampus Beast.

 

[MojoPenguin]

It's a Digital amp capturing One Angle of an Amp. It's a tool useful for gigging musicians, but not like having your good old amp that you know like the back of your hands.

 

[MultiScaleMale]

Why should you get a return policy?

Sonos (www.sonos.com) states in their dealer agreement that Sonos direct dealers have NO right of return. Period. They don't even have a RMA department because Sonos does not take returns.

Why should a retailer be different?

Then I probably wouldn't buy from Sonos. The return policy is offered to allow you to make sure the item works for you. The retailer is gambling that they'll sell more that way than if they had no return policy. I've only used the return policy a handful of times, but I've not purchased from a local retailer many times mostly because they have an all sales final policy.

 

[MultiScaleMale]

Intent, agreed a moral question to b e sure but how, to the seller / manufacturer ANY DIFFERENT than a 30day return policy, try before you buy policy?

It changes the number of returns and potentially kills the return policy for others.