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The ethics of Kemper profiling amps

#21
Or likened to cassette tapes, recording from the radio, VCR, recordable compact disk, dvr,...
Another angle, consider the name. Modelling.
I can make I visually exact model of a ship, and stuff it into a bottle. Under close inspection, without scale reference, or filmed in scaled perspective surroundings it is easy to believe that it truly is the Millennium Falcon.
Is it?
Is it Beatle Mania, or the real thing?
Anyone see the hologram of Michael Jackson?

Go to a studio and use their 50 fender tweed Harvard and record a track?

I'm sorry, I get the point being made. But really how is it so very different from what I stated above?
 
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#22
Ordering an amp with the intent of returning it isn't cool - it's effectively stealing some of the value of the amp because it can't be sold as new, and isn't any different than going to your local electronics store and buying a 72" TV just to watch the Super Bowl, and then returning it afterwards. (yes, I know those stories are largely apocryphal)

I don't have any particular ethical problem with recording a piece of gear's "signature", as it were, though. I would suggest that music stores might be able to capitalize on a sale they otherwise would not have made by offering that as a service, though. "Want to bring your Kemper in to record some classic amps/cabs? Sure, that'll be $250/hour, and we'll provide some decent mics."

beans-on-toast said:
In the case of digital plugins, products that are modeled on protected products are developed in conjunction with the original company. So they are paid a royalty.
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The licensing fee/royalty is usually paid for the use of trademarks, not for any intellectual property inherent to the sound of the equipment itself. It's a lot easier to sell a plugin called "Ampeg SVX" than one called "this cool plugin that sounds like a popular bass amp".
 
#23
Yeah, ripping innovation is becoming more efficient. I would say that copying digital music isn't the same thing as reproducing a (very) similar sound. It's certainly not illegal. Ethics rarely factor in.

The guy getting an amp, profiling and returning is the same guy taking cds and dvds from the library and ripping them. One if those is illegal and they both are immoral.
 
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#24
Coolhandjjl said:
Jim Marshall physically modeled his circuitry after Leo Fenders' amps.
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And Leo got the idea from the RCA handbook.
The Marshalls were not identical and used different tubes.
Has anyone ever tried to defend a patent on early tube amps?

As stated by others, the Kemper offers nothing in the way of a new or original design.
It is a tape recorder to steal other people’s work.
Some will have a problem with this concept, others won’t.

The irony about being able to sound “exactly” like a given old amp is ironic in that if you lined up 3 Tweed Deluxe amps, no two would sound identical due to component values.
 
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#26
Vince Klortho said:
In the keyboard world there was Joe Zawinul. With the same synths that anyone could buy he made sounds that were new. Flutes that sounded like they were 15' long with a diameter of 4". Same sound with three violins inside. Wouldn't that be the thing for modelers? Design new lustrous rich amp sounds.
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Yep. I had a Roland VG-8 for a few years and the whole fun for me was new sounds that 'real' guitar amps and guitars can't make. I tried a Kemper rig at NAMM and saw great potential for doing the same thing with it. When I was working at ARP back in the 70s all this stuff was a frequent topic of conversation. Lots of people were in the doom and gloom about "real" musicians losing work. The market giveth and the market taketh away, same as it ever was.

Purposefully buying and then returning stuff by plan is a whole other issue, time to get to work on that TASER modeler I guess. Link Removed
 
#27
Kemper developed some really interesting technology and they marketed it. There's nothing ethically questionable about what they did.

Buying an amp to model it (or sample it, or record a demo with it) with the intention of returning it once the task is complete is a whole other issue. It's dishonest. People who do that sort of thing are ethically disabled.
 
#28
The overall point of the video deals with intellectual property. The difference between making a digital copy of a song (profiling) , versus recording your own cover of the song (modeling).
I'm sorry that I'm not very good at expressing my thoughts (aspergers), but it's obvious that many of those responding have not watched the video.
The fear is that musicians will not value the hard work of those who created a new amp / voice and steal it, just as the general public no longer values those of us who spend years learning an instrument and create new music.
Does anyone here work for free? I'm just not speaking of music. Whether you have a white collar, blue collar, or whatever collar day job, would you go in every day for zero compensation, other than just the self satisfaction that you did your job well?
So please watch the video. Henning says more than I could ever express in print, or words for that matter.

Thanks for your understanding.
 
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#29
If you buy a Kemper and then proceed to "buy" expensive amps to profile and then quickly return, you should have bought an AxeFx or Line6 Helix. The Kemper is a touring artists tool to take their precious tube head on the road without the risk or worry of it getting damaged. It exists for a very specific purpose, IMO.

I'd say the act of buying amps to profile and return is borderline unethical, and definitely stupid.
 
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#30
Lo-E said:
Kemper developed some really interesting technology and they marketed it. There's nothing ethically questionable about what they did.

Buying an amp to model it (or sample it, or record a demo with it) with the intention of returning it once the task is complete is a whole other issue. It's dishonest. People who do that sort of thing are ethically disabled.
Click to expand...

It's interesting. What would you have Kemper owners do, say to copy the Fender Twin ? Ask around locally to see if you can borrow one from somebody ? Or, actually go out and buy a Twin, copy it, and then try to resell it ? Of course, people are going to get a new Twin and return it; it's the easiest way to do it. On the one hand you have Kemper who came up with this technology, basically saying, " Hey everybody, no need to go out and buy a bunch of different amps anymore, just copy them into our devise and be done with it." On the other hand you have the Kemper owner who now says, " Well how the hell am I gonna copy that Ampeg unless I go buy one and return it afterwards ? "
 
#31
osv said:
The overall point of the video deals with intellectual property. The difference between making a digital copy of a song (profiling) , versus recording your own cover of the song (modeling).
I'm sorry that I'm not very good at expressing my thoughts (aspergers), but it's obvious that many of those responding have not watched the video.
The fear is that musicians will not value the hard work of those who created a new amp / voice and steal it, just as the general public no longer values those of us who spend years learning an instrument and create new music.
Does anyone here work for free? I'm just not speaking of music. Whether you have a white collar, blue collar, or whatever collar day job, would you go in every day for zero compensation, other than just the self satisfaction that you did your job well?
So please watch the video. Henning says more than I could ever express in print, or words for that matter.

Thanks for your understanding.
Click to expand...
I think you aren't fully aware of how most modeling amps work. They're not an attempt at recreating an amp...they are simulating the exact circuit of the amp. The modeling company will find a circuit diagram of an amp they want to model, and they enter that circuit into a DSP assisted simulation of that circuit. Modeling is just as much a digital copy as profiling.

Maybe I'm just arguing semantics, but I figured it's worth pointing out.
 
#33
derrico1 said:
But thinking that way, there's already a paradox here. Why do we get worked up about technology that uses IR design to mimic existing voices, but we often celebrate boutique electronics design that gives us many slightly tweaked versions of a Ross compressor, or a Tube Screamer, or a Fender Deluxe, Blues Breaker, etc? One of my fave bass amps is an old Thunderfunk, which is deeply inspired by the AMP BH420. And I've got guitar pedalboards packed w/ Wampler, Sparkledrives, OCD, Keeley comps, etc—all to some extent refining or extending a previous gear builder's classic tone and design.
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That is a good point. I've highlighted what I've seen as hypocrisy on this website many times, when people get up in arms over Behringer making a clone mixing board but there's never even an eek of criticism against Sadowsky or Lakland who build instruments that are clearly taken from Leo Fender's designs.

With that said, I agree with the general consensus here that the idea of profiling itself is not ethically problematic, but buying an amp to model just to return it is crappy. The long-term problem is quite clear: If boutique builders, who already have low profit margins, are going to build amps only to have them profiled and returned to the store, they aren't going to build amps. Of course, you'd have to have a lot of Kemper players out there for this to have a significant effect. I guess this is a good instance in which musicians being stubborn luddites actually works out.

I've never played through a Kemper, but I've heard players use them. I've been super impressed each time. I'd love to try one out and see what's it's like for bass.
 
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#34
Ordering something knowing that you're going to return it is pretty crappy. In the end that will just mean the end of generous return policies for the rest of us. The problem with digital modeling is that in three or four years your modeling amp will be worth a hundred bucks because three other generations were released during that time. For bass, a sansamp is really all the modeling we ever need.

I think digital modeling allows people the opportunity to get sounds of amps that they would never be able to afford and would never buy in the first place. So I'm not sure that boutique amp makers are hurt that much. I would have to research that point, it's just supposition for now. Modeling out of production gear poses little to no ethical dilemma and hurts the companies as much as buying used instead of new.

Legally, there isn't much you can do. You can't patent or trademark a tone just like you can't protect a fragrance.

Buying with the intent to return is pretty crappy. I used to offer a 7 day trial on things that I sold in the Classifieds. One day someone wanted to return a pedal because he said he really just wanted to try it and couldn't find one locally. He had no shame in doing that and told me that was what he was doing. I stopped that policy immediately. If this keeps up, I expect online retailers to do the same - at least with amps.
 
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#36
So I'll ask again, what do you all suggest to somebody who just bought a Kemper, and wants to clone some amps ? Other than doing what you all seem to think is unethical, what choices does he have ?
 
#37
jnewmark said:
So I'll ask again, what do you all suggest to somebody who just bought a Kemper, and wants to clone some amps ? Other than doing what you all seem to think is unethical, what choices does he have ?
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Okay, it seems like a few people on this thread don't know the capabilities of profiling amps.

Line 6, Fractal, Kemper, Eleven Rack etc. all these companies have forums where you can download and upload user presets. Not to mention that all these units come with incredible presets/patches built in...
 
#38
Funk³ said:
Okay, it seems like a few people on this thread don't know the capabilities of profiling amps.

Line 6, Fractal, Kemper, Eleven Rack etc. all these companies have forums where you can download and upload user presets. Not to mention that all these units come with incredible presets/patches built in...
Click to expand...
So, are you saying that there is really no need to go out and buy , say, a Fender Twin, that the preset of it is already available ? I admit I don't have much interest in modeling devices, but the subject is interesting when people point fingers at someone doing what seems to be encouraged by the very device itself, namely, copying the sound of an amp so you don't actually have to buy the amp itself. Or am I way off ?
 
#39
A question about the Kemper - does one profiling event capture an amp/cab sound for one configuration of settings? If I change overdrive, clean/distorted mix, tone controls, do I need to run another profile?
 

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