The Fifths Tuning Club

[Will_White]

A question for the fifths club - I’ve recently decided to tune in fifths on my short scale to get the extra range. I’ve so far experimented with nickel rounds, flats and tapes. Do most of you find flats and tapes are easier to work with due to a lot of the fretting hand moving up and down the neck frequently? Rounds tend to be grabby and finger squeaky…

It's all just technique, I have one full scale with flats tuned to C, one with rounds tuned to G0, and a short scale with rounds tuned to C. I don't have any issue with string squeak. Rounds are harder on the fingers but once you get the calluses, which for some reason are different then standard tuning, it's not too bad.

 

[srayb]

It's all just technique, I have one full scale with flats tuned to C, one with rounds tuned to G0, and a short scale with rounds tuned to C. I don't have any issue with string squeak. Rounds are harder on the fingers but once you get the calluses, which for some reason are different then standard tuning, it's not too bad.

I’ve noticed it also depends on genre of music - as some have mentioned, it makes some things easier, and some things harder. Fast scale runs are certainly challenging (stay away from Yngwie Malmsteen songs)! But I find the benefits are outweighing any difficulties, for me anyway - and especially using a short scale helps to minimize these issues. Thanks for your input.

 

[wattsup32]

I am sorry for the ignorant post here. I am not as adept as you all.

My 12 year-old has asked to start learning the bass. The catch is that she has been playing violin for 9 years and wants to tune the bass like a violin (low string to high, GDAE). I have a Reverend Rumblefish for her.

Can this be done? And, if so, how would I go about it? What strings should I buy (she wants flats)?

Thanks in advance for the info and for forgiving my lack of knowledge here.

 

[Reg Braithwaite]

My 12 year-old has asked to start learning the bass. The catch is that she has been playing violin for 9 years and wants to tune the bass like a violin (low string to high, GDAE). I have a Reverend Rumblefish for her.

Can this be done? And, if so, how would I go about it? What strings should I buy (she wants flats)?

We can certainly explain how to do it, and yes of course it can be done. I just purchased some strings to perform this exact conversion on my acoustic bass guitar, so I am somewhat sympathetic.

But that being said... Your 12 year-old may want to explore whether to do it right off the bat with their first bass. There are many reasons why it might be best to first gain experience with the standard tuning, and only then consider "thinking different."

For example, they may well come back to fifths tuning, but decide that CGDA gives them the ability to play a lot of cello repertoire as well as having the range at both ends to play conventional bass repertoire and even handle music written for five-string basses or basses with a C extension.

I leave you with some pretentiously intoned—but nevertheless useful—wisdom often called Chesterton's Fence:

In the matter of reforming things, as distinct from deforming them, there is one plain and simple principle; a principle which will probably be called a paradox. There exists in such a case a certain institution or law; let us say, for the sake of simplicity, a fence or gate erected across a road. The more modern type of reformer goes gaily up to it and says, “I don’t see the use of this; let us clear it away.” To which the more intelligent type of reformer will do well to answer: “If you don’t see the use of it, I certainly won’t let you clear it away. Go away and think. Then, when you can come back and tell me that you do see the use of it, I may allow you to destroy it.

—G.K. Chesterton, 1929

 

[pklima]

Flats might not be easy to find for that high E, but hopefully somebody here's got a recommendation. Might even need to use regular flats for the bottom three strings and a long plain string for that E?

I'd be inclined to recommend CGDA (or regular fourths tuning, but if she's already tried that on your basses and isn't getting along with it then that's already done). Reading notes won't translate directly from violin anyway, as they'll be in bass clef. Then the high string is not a problem and you can just buy a set of 5-string flats and not use the E, plus the bass will cover "proper" bass range which will make it a lot more useful for potentially joining a band.

 

[wattsup32]

Thank you for the reply and advice. I have tried to get her to consider standard tuning before thinking different. But, she made a solid point which is, to her, standard tuning IS thinking different. She knows the notes on the neck of the violin and doesn't want to have to learn another way.

I am going to give the set of 5-strings idea a shot for now and see if I can nudge her toward pushing herself a bit out of her comfort zone later.

 

[Cal03]

I would still recommend starting in standard, especially if she wanted to play bass guitar in a traditional setting. The Chesterton quote is very applicable here, 90% (at least) of all bass guitar music is played on EADG standard. Also, the scale length difference between violin (12.8") and even a short scale bass (30") is so large that she wouldn't be able to apply violin fingerings, which would be along the lines of 2 fingers per fret. Lastly, I imagine the playing styles between an acoustic, fretless, bowed instrument with a tiny scale length and an electric, fretted, plucked instrument with a gargantuan scale length are so vastly different that a change in tuning wouldn't add much.

That said, I do remember seeing one of the members here mention that she learned bass guitar in CGDA coming from cello, so it can be done. I'm happy to be proven wrong about all of my caveats above .If she is committed to the idea, I'd use CGDA over GDAE for the lower range and ease of putting a set together.

 

[srayb]

I’d recommend these, to get the best balance of tensions.

D’Addario XL Nickel single string XLB020p:

• .020 tune to E (29.6 lbs)

D’Addario XL Chrome Custom Set ECB84:

• .040 tune up to A (47.4 lbs)
• .060 tune to D (45.2 lbs)
• .080 tune down to G (34.7 lbs)
• .100 (spare - don’t use)

 

[Will_White]

You can get Chrome singles from Fretnation.com

.032, .045, .070, .095 would be decent if a little stiff.

 

[BarfanyShart]

Stringjoy custom set .025, .040., .060, .090 - would work good for GDAE at medium-light tension. I have a 5 string tuned CGDAE with gauges .030, .045, .065, .095, .0135 - and its a little on the medium-heavy side even with a shorter scale.

I say go for it, it's just a set of strings. If the kid likes bass, they can always choose to go to standard tuning, or whatever other tuning they want to try.

 

[srayb]

Stringjoy custom set .025, .040., .060, .090 - would work good for GDAE at medium-light tension. I have a 5 string tuned CGDAE with gauges .030, .045, .065, .095, .0135 - and its a little on the medium-heavy side even with a shorter scale.

I say go for it, it's just a set of strings. If the kid likes bass, they can always choose to go to standard tuning, or whatever other tuning they want to try.

That is so close to a GDAE set I used on my short scale recently, using D’Addario XL nickel round wounds (90/65/40/25), which seemed like the perfect balance of tensions.

 

[BarfanyShart]

If you want flats for a high E, you may want to look into the winding lengths for flatwound jazz guitar strings. I seem to remember Chromes and DR's would work for my short scale - not sure if they would work with the Reverend. If they are long enough, you can mix them with their bass guitar equivalents.

 

[srayb]

26785616[/URL], member: 347603"]If you want flats for a high E, you may want to look into the winding lengths for flatwound jazz guitar strings. I seem to remember Chromes and DR's would work for my short scale - not sure if they would work with the Reverend. If they are long enough, you can mix them with their bass guitar equivalents.

The D’Addario XL Nickel singles .018p & .020p are “flat” (plain) strings, not roundwound like all the larger gauges, which is why I suggested the .020p for the high E.

 

[pklima]

Great, that solves that problem.

 

[BarfanyShart]

Great, that solves that problem.

Say what you want about our fifths quirk, we are a solution-oriented bunch.

 

[Will_White]

The D’Addario XL Nickel singles .018p & .020p are “flat” (plain) strings, not roundwound like all the larger gauges, which is why I suggested the .020p for the high E.

I wouldn't want just one plain string, the difference in tone between a flat wound and plain is significant, if Chrome guitar strings are long enough, I'd look at those, fretnation.com has those in singles down to a .020.

 

[Will_White]

The D’Addario XL Nickel singles .018p & .020p are “flat” (plain) strings, not roundwound like all the larger gauges, which is why I suggested the .020p for the high E.

I wouldn't want just one plain string, the difference in tone between a flat wound and plain is significant, if Chrome guitar strings are long enough, I'd look at those, fretnation.com has those in singles down to a .020

 

[coyoteboy]

Thomastik and GHS also do flatwound guitars strings. I was using them a bit for e cello.

 

[Cal03]

On my fiver (34" scale), I'm currently using Kalium stainless steel rounds for CGDAE, at roughly 40 lbs of tension per string. The following numbers were calculated here.

String - Gauge (in.) - Tension (lbs.)
E3 - 0.024 - 40.62
A2 - 0.037 - 40.00
D2 - 0.057 - 40.36
G1 - 0.086 - 40.69
C1 - 0.130 - 40.38

The high E is still wound, but Kalium does make plains long enough for 34" scale. When I had my sixer in fifths (also 34" scale), I added a high B (B3) to the above using a plain 0.015 at 36.52 lbs of tension.

Back when I started this foray into fifths last summer, Kalium delivery times were unbearably long, and I had to call Skip twice to check with my order. Since then, customer service has improved dramatically: delivery times are much more reasonable and Skip even called me to fix a mistake with my order.

 

[Papageno]

Thank you for the reply and advice. I have tried to get her to consider standard tuning before thinking different. But, she made a solid point which is, to her, standard tuning IS thinking different. She knows the notes on the neck of the violin and doesn't want to have to learn another way.

I am going to give the set of 5-strings idea a shot for now and see if I can nudge her toward pushing herself a bit out of her comfort zone later.

Frankly speaking, and without being disrespectful, 12 years is definitely not too old to open one's mind and start thinking different.

If what your daughter has in mind is playing what she already can play on the violin, only 2 octaves lower, then maybe she will be disappointed because it wont work that way.

Maybe she needs to reflect about why she wants to play the bass in the first place and what she wants to achieve with it. The role of the bass in music is the polar opposit of that of the violin. Everything is vastly different between these 2 instruments.

And by the way, the open strings are tuned the same on both instruments (only in reverse order), so that there no need to relearn where all notes are on the fingerboard.