The FireDragon Triplets

[Jisch]

There's a video out there of a guy who mounts a guitar neck to three slabs of different woods, there was very definitely differences in tone between the three. I'll find it and post when I'm in front of my computer. It changed my mind about the whole thing.

 

[mark5009]

I might look at getting a small lathe, they are very handy things to have

So much to learn! My brother-in-law has a small CNC mill, a 3D printer, and a small lathe, and it is so tempting to go over there and play, but it is much easier to buy off the shelf at times. Looking forward to seeing how these babies shape up, Christine.

 

[mark5009]

Yeah, you and I and a small group of Luthiers know that, but whenever we mention it, it turns into an argument.

@Bruce Johnson, do you have more information, link or otherwise, of the SA design you use? Is it similar to the design Martin Koch details in his book? As a beginner, I've taken the easier route of a DA U-tube design, however, I know you make excellent instruments. Seems to me it might be time to do some experimentation

 

[Bruce Johnson]

My truss rods are shown and used on quite few threads here on Talk Bass. Threads about my own Scroll Basses, basses that Keith (Horne) and I have built, some of my clients (other Luthiers), and a few independent builders who've copied my design.

This thread about Rick's Les Paul Bass build has the best series of posts showing the installation and explaining how it works in detail. I'm installing the truss rod into the neck blank which Keith will be building into the neck for the project. My posts start on page 24, down at the bottom of the page, post #480.

My Les Paul Bass Build - I need a Gibby too...

I make up many different variations of truss rods for various clients, but my standard model that I use most often is single-rod double-acting.

 

[mark5009]

My posts start on page 24, down at the bottom of the page, post #480.

Many thanks

 

[Christine]

Tonewood debates rage on elsewhere, devoid of actual science, they will continue to rage on fruitlessly. You build the best bass you can, if you are diligent and a little bit lucky, it sounds as good as it looks. I’ve had a few personal experiences that left me a Tonewood Undecided, still waiting for that True Blind Test to emerge, but it probably wouldn’t change many minds, humans tend to ignore inconvenient data at will. Maybe when I have 5-10 basses under my belt I can form a coherent opinion based on something beyond internal bias.

I'm not sure at all how much difference different woods make to the tone of an instrument, I would love to run an experiment making an identical guitar out of different woods using some lift out drop in set of electrics, same bridge etc to see what happens, just for my own benefit. Of course there's much more to it than what wood, there's things like glueing three bits together to make a body blank or laminating a maple (or other) top onto a body, they all have an effect on how vibration energy from the strings is dissipated and modified before being fed back through the bridge and nut into the strings which in turn modifies their vibration pattern... the sound. Those are the laws of physics and you can argue all you want (not you specifically ) but how you make a guitar will dictate how it sounds. I fully admit that that difference in sound will be very small but we share 98% of our DNA with the halibut, it's that 2% that makes the difference. What makes a Stradivarius violin better than an Bergonzi? I can't hear the difference personally but there are many who can (those who don't spend time stood in front of a bass cab and drum kit). In a nutshell, if wood didn't make a difference we would all be playing pink plywood P basses and all be very happy.

But I'm afraid I'm in the same boat, I don't have enough knowledge or experience to give an informed opinion on individual tonewoods but I have my suspicions that construction my play a bigger part than the actual wood itself and I would rather rid the word tonewood from the dictionary and replace it with something less mystical like "plank of wood"

I do think also if you are diligent and make a guitar that has good qualities it will probably sound good but yes luck has got a lot to do with it when you're as inexperienced as me

 

[Christine]

No, there's no real difference between the truss rod installations of these two projects of yours. Same basic parts and dimensions. Obviously, the LP's neck will be softer structurally, because it's mahogany.

In terms of how it affects the tone, this type of truss rod will have the same effect on the structure of both necks: It puts a metal tension strap down the back of the neck. So, when the neck flexes, the strap (the truss rod) will keep the wood at the back of the neck from stretching. By doing that, all the movement happens by compressing the wood towards the front of the neck. If you didn't know, one of the unique features of wood is that it has much greater damping properties in compression than it does in tension. Building the neck like this forces the wood to be mostly in compression during the flexing cycle, which increases the damping properties as the wood moves. This damping is what adds the background coloration into the sound; those extra frequency spikes on either side of the root and octaves. The proverbial richness and warmth.

That's one of the other big advantages of a single-rod truss rod. If the neck is soft enough overall to flex somewhat with the string cycles, then "strapping" the neck with a single-rod truss rod adds coloration/richness. You can't get that with a double-rod truss rod, because it's not functioning as a strap. Leo may have known this, or maybe not. Fender necks usually sound best when their truss rods are tightened enough that they are functioning as a strap.

Now, if you deliberately build the neck super stiff, then this doesn't matter. If the neck is stiff enough that it barely flexes with the string cycles, then it won't produce any coloration anyway. That's the definition of a "cold" bass. I don't build them like that. I like coloration and richness.

Back to the specifics of the LP neck:

Keith and I haven't decided for sure how we're going to do the neck/body joint. My recommendation to him is that it's easier for me to mill an accurate 5 degree angle on the bottom surface of the heel while the neck is still a rectangular blank. Then he can rout the matching pocket in the body with a flat bottom. That's how I've done set-necks for other clients and projects.

Quote from @BassHappy LP thread by @Bruce Johnson

That makes just so much sense, worth a read

 

[Flamingo21]

Oh no, it's her again!

Following this thread.

 

[Jisch]

This is the video I was talking about (edit: after listening quickly just now there is a way more pronounced difference between the fir and the mahogany and maple than between the mahogany and maple themselves, but there are subtle differences):

 

[Christine]

This is the video I was talking about (edit: after listening quickly just now there is a way more pronounced difference between the fir and the mahogany and maple than between the mahogany and maple themselves, but there are subtle differences):

That is brilliant! Thank you, nuff said I think The only criticism of that test is that the Fir body was physically smaller than the other two but either way that was quite conclusive and bigger differences than I imagined

 

[Count Bassie]

That is brilliant! Thank you, nuff said I think The only criticism of that test is that the Fir body was physically smaller than the other two but either way that was quite conclusive and bigger differences than I imagined

And it's fun to hear him talk!

 

[Count Bassie]

Also the fir was quite a surprise. That's the one that had a smoother, fuller sound that brought to mind what I remember hearing back when we were rehearsing at our friend's mom's living room... keeping in mind of course what a thief memory is...

 

[Christine]

And it's fun to hear him talk!

Accents are great aren't they, well apart from Birmingham UK of course

 

[Christine]

Also the fir was quite a surprise. That's the one that had a smoother, fuller sound that brought to mind what I remember hearing back when we were rehearsing at our friend's mom's living room... keeping in mind of course what a thief memory is...

My thoughts too, it was unbelievable but it is a low density very fibrous wood I imagine it dampened the vibrations being fed into it very well and fed back a lower frequency than the other two, just a guess

 

[Count Bassie]

And this was next right after that one!

 

[Count Bassie]

My thoughts too, it was unbelievable but it is a low density very fibrous wood I imagine it dampened the vibrations being fed into it very well and fed back a lower frequency than the other two, just a guess

Maybe as a core lamination, taking up a good share of a body's thickness? A little something on top... and a little something around the backside?

(Anticipates *Ahems* forthcoming...)

 

[Christine]

I want to buy some cheeeeese!

The trouble with Fir is that it expands and contracts much faster than things like Maple, so you may get some delamination or at the very least some telegraphing at the join on the edges. Not impossible though

 

[Matt Liebenau]

I'm not sure at all how much difference different woods make to the tone of an instrument, I would love to run an experiment making an identical guitar out of different woods using some lift out drop in set of electrics, same bridge etc to see what happens, just for my own benefit. Of course there's much more to it than what wood, there's things like glueing three bits together to make a body blank or laminating a maple (or other) top onto a body, they all have an effect on how vibration energy from the strings is dissipated and modified before being fed back through the bridge and nut into the strings which in turn modifies their vibration pattern... the sound. Those are the laws of physics and you can argue all you want (not you specifically ) but how you make a guitar will dictate how it sounds. I fully admit that that difference in sound will be very small but we share 98% of our DNA with the halibut, it's that 2% that makes the difference. What makes a Stradivarius violin better than an Bergonzi? I can't hear the difference personally but there are many who can (those who don't spend time stood in front of a bass cab and drum kit). In a nutshell, if wood didn't make a difference we would all be playing pink plywood P basses and all be very happy.

But I'm afraid I'm in the same boat, I don't have enough knowledge or experience to give an informed opinion on individual tonewoods but I have my suspicions that construction my play a bigger part than the actual wood itself and I would rather rid the word tonewood from the dictionary and replace it with something less mystical like "plank of wood"

I do think also if you are diligent and make a guitar that has good qualities it will probably sound good but yes luck has got a lot to do with it when you're as inexperienced as me

Dang it! Now I want you to make a pink, plywood P bass. Quit saying stuff like that!

 

[Count Bassie]

I want to buy some cheeeeese!

The trouble with Fir is that it expands and contracts much faster than things like Maple, so you may get some delamination or at the very least some telegraphing at the join on the edges. Not impossible though

Might have to just do a solid body then. I'm intrigued.
I wonder how different a lower-mid freq instrument (like a bass guitar) would sound...

 

[Christine]

Might have to just do a solid body then. I'm intrigued.
I wonder how different a lower-mid freq instrument (like a bass guitar) would sound...

Don't know I've just hinted at some feedback from someone who has made one first build