The Great Bass Preamp/DI Comparison

[Rocksolid]

Hanging to get hold of my Barber Linden EQ. It's been sitting in Chicago for 10 days now. This USPS upheaval is killing me.

 

[scubaduba]

Hanging to get hold of my Barber Linden EQ. It's been sitting in Chicago for 10 days now. This USPS upheaval is killing me.

It will be worth the wait. Nice pedal. Though I suspect it will compete with your Particle Accelerator.

 

[jacoby75]

I continue to follow this thread with interest (as well as @scubaduba 's poll thread with the recordings). But, the part I am having troubles sorting out is that we are discussing and evaluating gear for at least 3 distinctly different signal chains: 1) preamp feeding a power amp driven backline rig; 2) preamp feeding a recording console / device; and 3) preamp feeding an FOH board for silent stage performance.

One might think that these three different signal chains should serve the same master. But, so far, I am NOT finding that what works best for one necessarily works best for the others.

To begin with, NO preamp / DI I have yet experienced stands up to the dedicated preamp / amp options available for #1. This is probably my largest source of consternation so far. I would dearly love to simply have a great preamp / DI board to use for live work with either backline or no backline situations. But, my dedicated rack and hybrid amps continue to be far more satisfying into my bass cabs. I'm a keep looking / listening; but, that one is no contest still at this point.

Regarding #3, I've had WAY more issues from a practical perspective with what the various "sound engineers" do with the signal I'm feeding them, than with the details of the signal I'm sending. To the point that I continue to just use the relatively inexpensive Mesa preamp/DI I got a number of years back for a lot of gigs, just because the sound engineer is going to pretty much completely jerk it around in most cases anyhow. I suppose if I had the luxury of working with the SAME sound engineering staff with sufficient time to really dial things in, then I might become more discriminating about what I am sending. Right now, I'm still in the mode of send something that is reasonably simple and hope for the best.

I do a whole lot less of #2 than it seems a lot of players on here; because it seems like most of the assessments are pretty directly aimed at #2. If I were to do a bunch of studio time, then I would greatly value a lot of the hard work in this thread and Scuba's thread. But, I don't tend to spend a lot of time in the studio. And since I can't directly connect performance evaluated by #2 with the other signal chain issues I'm up against, it's hard to know what is useful.

My bottom line is that I'm waiting for that preamp/DI pedal that can go toe to toe with my rack preamps and also does great with at least one of the other signal chains. We've got a lot of nice new gear options; and I'm a fan of the progress; but, still waiting for that silver bullet to appear.

Thanks to all for your hard work and posting the interesting info.

^ This is a very insightful post, and it's very much in line with what I've been experiencing over the past couple of weeks. I have been searching for the past few years now for that "do-it-all pedalboard" that would sound as good as my rack, but give me options and have effects as well for the times I wanted that. I wanted to have every option at my disposal all of the time. Even if I had no intention of using it in a particular setting (like dragging a huge wah pedal to church). I also primarily wanted to send the best EQ'd, compressed, tubed up tone I could to the FOH at whatever church I was playing at, so I didn't have to worry about under-trained sound people mucking up my tone. "Just turn up the fader, please. That's all you have to do. Don't touch anything else."

In the end, I recently wound up with this . . .

And it sounds good. Really good. But it's heavy as sin. And it's expensive. That top row alone has about $1,700 worth of gear on it. Were I to ever get the opportunity to play in a bar band again, I can't see myself taking this thing on the road where drunks will step on it and spill beer on it. But it makes for some really fun headphone jamming. I could just schlep this thing to church, let them take a DI out of the Khan, and be very happy. But when there's an amp, things would have to be tweaked and retweaked to get a good sound out of this into an amp . . . while maintaining a good enough sound that the under-trained church sound person can still get a good sound at FOH with minimal effort. But this is way too big to take into the crammed community theater pit, if I get future pit orchestra gigs. And after all of the time and effort it took to wire this huge board up neatly, to have to take things off or switch things around to make up smaller boards for different gigging needs and then later rewire it up would not be convenient. And I was never really happy with the tone, continually searching and buying and flipping pedals. It got very costly and very time-consuming.

Then the other day I had a little free time. (Don't we all?) I decided to plug the old rack in. I had to dust it off because I haven't even opened it in probably 3+ years. The cornerstone of my rack is a Demeter VTBP-201s. I was immediately blown away. I forgot how good it sounded. And no combination of the above pedals sounded as good to my ears. And the pre pedals did not sound good going into the Demeter. They became entirely unnecessary, and only muddied things up. It's silly, really, to think that a $200 pedal would sound as good as a $900 rack pre. Now don't get me wrong. They sound good, and can do cool things in their own right to supplement an already great tone, but that's a different matter. A $200 preamp pedal into the $700 Khan sounded pretty darn good. But not as good. As a core tone, the rack just sounds better.

So, I pared things down, put some new tubes in the Demeter, and arrived at this . . .

This makes me happy. Studio-quality tone in a portable 4-space rack that is still somehow smaller than the ginormous pedalboard it is sitting on in the pic. I got my small pedalboard down to just the basics that I can swap out with other drives or modulation effects when necessary, and still have a great core tone. Even the SVPre is unnecessary in this scenario.

So in the future I see myself carrying this rack and small board to most church gigs with the ability to plug it into most whatever they'll have on stage as backline and still sound good. Or if I don't feel like schlepping the rack, or if space in the car is at a premium, just take the small board and my Khan. If I get a cover band gig again, I'll throw my Carvin power amp in its own rack to bring along with the rack and my cab. Wouldn't necessarily need the pedalboard, but could bring it. If I'm playing in a pit again, I can just take the small board with my little GK 15" combo amp and whatever preamp pedal tickles my fancy, and call it a day.

I think a one-size-fits-all approach was unrealistic. At least for me. Maybe if I wanted to splurge on something like a Noble or other high-dollar preamp. But that's entirely unnecessary given that I already had the great rack pre. This setup might result in more things to carry from time to time, but it's worth it to have "that sound" in your head.

 

[1983L2000]

This is a very insightful post, and it's very much in line with what I've been experiencing over the past couple of weeks. I have been searching for the past few years now for that "do-it-all pedalboard" that would sound as good as my rack, but give me options and have effects as well for the times I wanted that. I also primarily wanted to send the best EQ'd, compressed, tubed up tone I could to the FOH at whatever church I was playing at, so I didn't have to worry about under-trained sound people mucking up my tone. "Just turn up the fader, please. That's all you have to do. Don't touch anything else."

In the end, I recently wound up with this . . .

View attachment 3958384

And it sounds good. Really good. But it's heavy as sin. And it's expensive. That top row alone has about $1,700 worth of gear on it. Were I to ever get the opportunity to play in a bar band again, I can't see myself taking this thing on the road where drunks will step on it and spill beer on it. But it makes for some really fun headphone jamming. I could just schlep this thing to church, let them take a DI out of the Khan, and be very happy. But when there's an amp, things would have to be tweaked and retweaked to get a good sound out of this into an amp . . . while maintaining a good enough sound that the under-trained church sound person can still get a good sound at FOH with minimal effort. But this is way too big to take into the crammed community theater pit, if I get future pit orchestra gigs. And after all of the time and effort it took to wire this huge board up neatly, to have to take things off or switch things around would not be convenient.

Then the other day I had a little free time. (Don't we all?) I decided to plug the old rack in. I had to dust it off because I haven't even opened it in probably 3+ years. The cornerstone of my rack is a Demeter VTBP-201s. I was immediately blown away. I forgot how good it sounded. And no combination of the above pedals sounded as good to my ears. And the pre pedals did not sound good going into the Demeter. They became entirely unnecessary, and only muddied things up. It's silly, really, to think that a $200 pedal would sound as good as a $900 rack pre. Now, they sound good, and can do cool things in their own right to supplement an already great tone, but that's a different matter. A $200 preamp pedal into the $700 Khan sounded pretty darn good. But not as good. As a core tone, the rack just sounds better.

So, I pared things down, put some new tubes in the Demeter, and arrived at this . . .

View attachment 3958390

This makes me happy. Studio-quality tone in a portable 4-space rack that is still somehow smaller than the ginormous pedalboard it is sitting on in the pic. I got the pedalboard down to just the basics that I can swap out with other drives or modulation effects when necessary, and still have a great core tone. Even the SVPre is unnecessary in this scenario.

So in the future I see myself carrying this rack and small board to most church gigs with the ability to plug it into most whatever they'll have on stage as backline and still sound good. Or if I don't feel like schlepping the rack, or if space in the car is at a premium, just take the small board and my Khan. If I get a cover band gig again, I'll throw my Carvin power amp in its own rack to bring along with the rack and my cab. Wouldn't necessarily need the pedalboard, but could bring it. If I'm playing in a pit again, I can just take the small board with my little GK 15" combo amp and whatever preamp pedal tickles my fancy, and call it a day.

I think a one-size-fits-all approach was unrealistic. At least for me. Maybe if I wanted to splurge on something like a Noble or other high-dollar preamp. But that's entirely unnecessary given that I already had the great rack pre. This setup might result in more things to carry from time to time, but it's worth it to have "that sound" in your head.

I don't have much time to elaborate now, but I did get similar vibes when I plugged directly into my recently acquired Jules Monique Tardis (I hesitated long between the Tardis and the Demeter preamp selection...) - I've had no opportunities to play at full volume with the band these days, but I did get the "blown away, how good does it sound..." feel. I'll still keep the SV Pre though (no dibs)...

 

[jacoby75]

I don't have much time to elaborate now, but I did get similar vibes when I plugged directly into my recently acquired Jules Monique Tardis - I've had no opportunities to play at full volume with the band these days, but I did get the "blown away, how good does it sound..." feel. I'll still keep the SV Pre though...

Right. The Broughton pedals are still excellent tools that aren't going anywhere. When you want what they offer, they are some of the best there is. The SVPre still does the best Ampeg SVT sim I've heard out of an analog pedal.

 

[Dave Hill]

^ This is a very insightful post, and it's very much in line with what I've been experiencing over the past couple of weeks. I have been searching for the past few years now for that "do-it-all pedalboard" that would sound as good as my rack, but give me options and have effects as well for the times I wanted that. I wanted to have every option at my disposal all of the time. Even if I had no intention of using it in a particular setting. I also primarily wanted to send the best EQ'd, compressed, tubed up tone I could to the FOH at whatever church I was playing at, so I didn't have to worry about under-trained sound people mucking up my tone. "Just turn up the fader, please. That's all you have to do. Don't touch anything else."

In the end, I recently wound up with this . . .

View attachment 3958384

And it sounds good. Really good. But it's heavy as sin. And it's expensive. That top row alone has about $1,700 worth of gear on it. Were I to ever get the opportunity to play in a bar band again, I can't see myself taking this thing on the road where drunks will step on it and spill beer on it. But it makes for some really fun headphone jamming. I could just schlep this thing to church, let them take a DI out of the Khan, and be very happy. But when there's an amp, things would have to be tweaked and retweaked to get a good sound out of this into an amp . . . while maintaining a good enough sound that the under-trained church sound person can still get a good sound at FOH with minimal effort. But this is way too big to take into the crammed community theater pit, if I get future pit orchestra gigs. And after all of the time and effort it took to wire this huge board up neatly, to have to take things off or switch things around to make up smaller boards for different gigging needs and then later rewire it up would not be convenient. And I was never really happy with the tone, continually searching and buying and flipping pedals. It got very costly and very time-consuming.

Then the other day I had a little free time. (Don't we all?) I decided to plug the old rack in. I had to dust it off because I haven't even opened it in probably 3+ years. The cornerstone of my rack is a Demeter VTBP-201s. I was immediately blown away. I forgot how good it sounded. And no combination of the above pedals sounded as good to my ears. And the pre pedals did not sound good going into the Demeter. They became entirely unnecessary, and only muddied things up. It's silly, really, to think that a $200 pedal would sound as good as a $900 rack pre. Now, they sound good, and can do cool things in their own right to supplement an already great tone, but that's a different matter. A $200 preamp pedal into the $700 Khan sounded pretty darn good. But not as good. As a core tone, the rack just sounds better.

So, I pared things down, put some new tubes in the Demeter, and arrived at this . . .

View attachment 3958390

This makes me happy. Studio-quality tone in a portable 4-space rack that is still somehow smaller than the ginormous pedalboard it is sitting on in the pic. I got the pedalboard down to just the basics that I can swap out with other drives or modulation effects when necessary, and still have a great core tone. Even the SVPre is unnecessary in this scenario.

So in the future I see myself carrying this rack and small board to most church gigs with the ability to plug it into most whatever they'll have on stage as backline and still sound good. Or if I don't feel like schlepping the rack, or if space in the car is at a premium, just take the small board and my Khan. If I get a cover band gig again, I'll throw my Carvin power amp in its own rack to bring along with the rack and my cab. Wouldn't necessarily need the pedalboard, but could bring it. If I'm playing in a pit again, I can just take the small board with my little GK 15" combo amp and whatever preamp pedal tickles my fancy, and call it a day.

I think a one-size-fits-all approach was unrealistic. At least for me. Maybe if I wanted to splurge on something like a Noble or other high-dollar preamp. But that's entirely unnecessary given that I already had the great rack pre. This setup might result in more things to carry from time to time, but it's worth it to have "that sound" in your head.

Exactly.
I have an Arkham Zephyr/Crest 3.0 rack for back line shows. The DI is awesome. It's in a 3-space rack, which is not heavy or unwieldy. Not even close to some of the big, expensive "one to do it all" pedal boards I've seen.
For IEM gigs or recording I have the P-15.
My small pedalboard goes to all the gigs.

 

[MascisMan]

Heads up guys, I listed my NuX NBP-5 Preamp/DI in the classified if anyone is interested!

 

[fast slapper]

I think some of the higher end pedals can compete very well with rack units. Have had very good results with Grace, Broughton Messenger, and Lehle. All these run around 30v internally. They all sound as good or better than the well designed Presonus RC500 which originally sold for $900 and uses a combination of highend opamps and discrete components.

A single high quality preamp is all you need for a great clean tone. Adding more can only reduce headroom and add noise. Multiple pedals is for drastic (effects) tone changes IMO.

 

[chadhargis]

Thanks for the great comparison - I think it really shows that you can go either way and get a great result. Although I cleary like the boutique board better - more dynamics, more bloom and it sounds as if the bass reaches lower. The budget board sounds narrow in direct comparison.

I agree. The boutique does sound better, as it should. But the budget stuff gets pretty dang close. We live in wonderful times. Anyone can sound good without spending a fortune.

IMO all that's needed is to send a "good quality" (no hum or unwanted distortion) full range signal to the FOH. But then the FOH engineer had to know what to do with it! Soooooo...I guess I just blew my own theory out of the water....

And new gear is fun. So there's that, too.

Lot of truth here. When I first started playing bass and had no equipment that's exactly what I did. I had a tuner pedal and a Countryman DI. That's it. I did play an active bass, so I had EQ on the bass...but no pedals or anything. I just let the sound man do what the sound man does.

 

[labeledbass]

Exactly.
I have an Arkham Zephyr/Crest 3.0 rack for back line shows. The DI is awesome. It's in a 3-space rack, which is not heavy or unwieldy. Not even close to some of the big, expensive "one to do it all" pedal boards I've seen.
For IEM gigs or recording I have the P-15.
My small pedalboard goes to all the gigs.

View attachment 3958470

I've done the same, pre wise - I have a Linden, SVpre, RFE, and Messenger for light duty but when I can afford to have my rack those get replaced with my zephyr and SVP-CL. I really can't get the linear tube breakup I get with those two units with any of the pedals, they come close though. I do use the same power amp with either pedal or rack setup, a Fryette PS2 or P100 (whatever my power demands are) that allows me to get good power stage character either silently self attenuating out XLR, running a cab, or if I need it really dirty, attenuate my LB30, either output. It definitely gets that nice preamp/power amp marriage without getting crazy loud. I just love the self attenuating too, not many amps do that, you can put a simple pedal in front of it and get awesome tone with it cranked

 

[Rocksolid]

It will be worth the wait. Nice pedal. Though I suspect it will compete with your Particle Accelerator.

Yeah I expect them to compete also, an I'm cool with that. I sold my PF-20T/112HLF before this recent splurge so getting a B15/tube tone this way is fine with me between either of these 2 and the LA-1A.

 

[Rev. Cornelius]

^ This is a very insightful post, and it's very much in line with what I've been experiencing over the past couple of weeks. I have been searching for the past few years now for that "do-it-all pedalboard" that would sound as good as my rack, but give me options and have effects as well for the times I wanted that. I wanted to have every option at my disposal all of the time. Even if I had no intention of using it in a particular setting (like dragging a huge wah pedal to church). I also primarily wanted to send the best EQ'd, compressed, tubed up tone I could to the FOH at whatever church I was playing at, so I didn't have to worry about under-trained sound people mucking up my tone. "Just turn up the fader, please. That's all you have to do. Don't touch anything else."

In the end, I recently wound up with this . . .

View attachment 3958384

And it sounds good. Really good. But it's heavy as sin. And it's expensive. That top row alone has about $1,700 worth of gear on it. Were I to ever get the opportunity to play in a bar band again, I can't see myself taking this thing on the road where drunks will step on it and spill beer on it. But it makes for some really fun headphone jamming. I could just schlep this thing to church, let them take a DI out of the Khan, and be very happy. But when there's an amp, things would have to be tweaked and retweaked to get a good sound out of this into an amp . . . while maintaining a good enough sound that the under-trained church sound person can still get a good sound at FOH with minimal effort. But this is way too big to take into the crammed community theater pit, if I get future pit orchestra gigs. And after all of the time and effort it took to wire this huge board up neatly, to have to take things off or switch things around to make up smaller boards for different gigging needs and then later rewire it up would not be convenient. And I was never really happy with the tone, continually searching and buying and flipping pedals. It got very costly and very time-consuming.

Then the other day I had a little free time. (Don't we all?) I decided to plug the old rack in. I had to dust it off because I haven't even opened it in probably 3+ years. The cornerstone of my rack is a Demeter VTBP-201s. I was immediately blown away. I forgot how good it sounded. And no combination of the above pedals sounded as good to my ears. And the pre pedals did not sound good going into the Demeter. They became entirely unnecessary, and only muddied things up. It's silly, really, to think that a $200 pedal would sound as good as a $900 rack pre. Now don't get me wrong. They sound good, and can do cool things in their own right to supplement an already great tone, but that's a different matter. A $200 preamp pedal into the $700 Khan sounded pretty darn good. But not as good. As a core tone, the rack just sounds better.

So, I pared things down, put some new tubes in the Demeter, and arrived at this . . .

View attachment 3958390

This makes me happy. Studio-quality tone in a portable 4-space rack that is still somehow smaller than the ginormous pedalboard it is sitting on in the pic. I got my small pedalboard down to just the basics that I can swap out with other drives or modulation effects when necessary, and still have a great core tone. Even the SVPre is unnecessary in this scenario.

So in the future I see myself carrying this rack and small board to most church gigs with the ability to plug it into most whatever they'll have on stage as backline and still sound good. Or if I don't feel like schlepping the rack, or if space in the car is at a premium, just take the small board and my Khan. If I get a cover band gig again, I'll throw my Carvin power amp in its own rack to bring along with the rack and my cab. Wouldn't necessarily need the pedalboard, but could bring it. If I'm playing in a pit again, I can just take the small board with my little GK 15" combo amp and whatever preamp pedal tickles my fancy, and call it a day.

I think a one-size-fits-all approach was unrealistic. At least for me. Maybe if I wanted to splurge on something like a Noble or other high-dollar preamp. But that's entirely unnecessary given that I already had the great rack pre. This setup might result in more things to carry from time to time, but it's worth it to have "that sound" in your head.

I think this is a very valid train of thought. As much as I find my pedalboard provides most everything I need I won't remove my WJ pre/powered 2x10 from my arsenal. Although in that scenario I may put the Khan in the effects loop of the WJ. YMMV
Thanks

 

[kevk]

For anyone interested in checking out the Khan DI...I have one in the classifieds.

 

[BunchyMutt]

Thinking about taking a page from LBA 2020 folks and getting another Night Owl Edison and have two running all the time. Too much?

 

[SteveC]

For anyone interested in checking out the Khan DI...I have one in the classifieds.

I thought that was a keeper. Did I miss a post?

 

[scubaduba]

Gotta cut another loose. SSDI reluctantly in the classifieds.

 

[kevk]

I thought that was a keeper. Did I miss a post?

Khan is a serious fantastic DI...but decided recently to massively re-work my entire equipment situation—retiring at the end of the school year (n-o-t selling my S1 )...

A bunch of amp/cab/pedal changes, and purging headed to the classifieds soon though.

 

[SteveC]

Khan is a serious fantastic DI...but decided recently to massively re-work my entire equipment situation—retiring at the end of the school year (n-o-t selling my S1 )...

A bunch of amp/cab/pedal changes, and purging headed to the classifieds soon though.

So, what's the neW set up?

 

[kevk]

So, what's the neW set up?

Not finalized (+ don't want to derail the thread)...I'll pm you at some point.

 

[benjobass]

Hey party people. For anyone interested, I've got an Arkham Oracle, a Broughton SSDI, and a Teegarden Fatboy all listed in the classifieds.