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The Great Metronome Debate

#101
Bass'd on a true story said:
This argument feels dangerously close to arguing against practice all together. Why strive for greatness or even perfection when we are all imperfect anyways. That line is way more nihilistic than I think you intended it to be. Frankly speaking, I don't enjoy playing with drummers who don't have a strong sense of time and I try to quickly remove myself from situations where I am working with a drummer like that. It's a drummer's primary job to keep time. If they can't do it then they don't belong on the gig. Sorry, not sorry.
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That's exactly what I was thinking. It's like saying: "I'm not gonna learn to read cuz I'm gonna come across some words that don't follow grammar rules eventually".
The moment an anti-metronome person has a piece of sheet music slapped down in front of them, with a time signature and a tempo indicated, and they start playing right at the beginning of the song, they'll wish they had practiced with a metronome. How the F can you just start playing at 125 bpm if you have no concept of what 125 bpm is?!
 
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#102
Bass'd on a true story said:
I don't enjoy playing with drummers who don't have a strong sense of time and I try to quickly remove myself from situations where I am working with a drummer like that.
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Same. After one rehearsal where a drummer is all over the place, the first thing anyone says to the person that hired them is “you need a new drummer”. Same goes for anyone in the group including the bassist.
 
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#103
Worldeeeter said:
The moment an anti-metronome person has a piece of sheet music slapped down in front of them, with a time signature and a tempo indicated, and they start playing right at the beginning of the song, they'll wish they had practiced with a metronome. How the F can you just start playing at 125 bpm if you have no concept of what 125 bpm is?!
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Exactly!
Reading music and having a reference point for BPMs is a whole other argument that so many people are against. Just like music theory, religion, and politics, everyone has there opinions and is an expert on every subject.
 
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#104
We are 95 posts or so in, and no conclusive reasons why metronomes are bad. I don't want to beat this topic to death, unless someone has a unique view on this.

I auditioned with a guitarist for a set of band sub gigs a while back. About two minutes into the first tune, he stopped and said I wasn't grooving. Actually he was slowing down while singing, especially when changing chords. I held my tongue. A few more tries and I hinted I was holding steady time to which he replied, that everyone in the band including the drummer would follow his lead on time. At that moment, I knew it was over. I held my tongue but conveniently forgot a lot of the tunes, so I could gracefully exit, apologizing that I wasn't good enough for his band.I knew I would never see him again, but I also knew I was getting out of there without getting knifed. (Tommy Tedesco common sense).

So I have been a big fan of the metronome almost as long as I have been playing bass -30 years. The 30 years prior to that, I played guitar so I didn't need a metronome (sarcasm). My interest in metronome started with a very thorough butt kicking form the college jazz director (ala Whiplash) for which I am eternally grateful..

My tempo "hold" today is pretty good, but I practice just to make sure. I can "hear" each of the 8th note subdivsions in a measure and can put a note where I want it by feel without counting at fast tempo. That internalizing comes from metronome practice. Wish I could do it with 16ths, but not yet, and haven't worked at it.

I build repertoire, technique and speed using the metronome and I am not ashamed to play at half tempo (or slower) initially to get something right. One of my personal weaknesses is letting note values blur, so gnome workouts keep me honest.

Along the way, I used a lot of metronome set to beat at 2 and 4 for jazz and 1 & 3 for those crazy 240 BPM salsa tunes.
 
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#105
IamGroot said:
My interest in metronome started with a very thorough butt kicking form the college jazz director (ala Whiplash) for which I am eternally grateful..
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Happened to me in high school. No way can you swing a big band if you can’t keep time. Luckily I learned very quickly that the bass is the driving force. Now I can sense like a Jedi if the drummer slows down just a little bit, and give them that evil eye to not slow down, especially those 200+ bpm charts!
 
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#108
I'm bothered by some of the serious responses here. I though music was supposed to be fun. If a band was that serious about their timing and that kind of technical stuff I don't think I would even enjoy the music that much. It starts to sound artificial.
 
#111
jchrisk1 said:
Edit:
It should be interesting to see if this thread can go on in civilized fashion, without JB telling everyone they're wrong.
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Just as expected. Not possible. Maybe Jeff wasn't the problem after all.
It seems everyone wants to argue who is right and wrong. Does it really matter? People have different ways of achieving the same results, do we really need to get bent of shape over who is right or wrong? Next thing you know, we'll be arguing four string players aren't as good as five or whatever string players. People that practice in the morning are inferior to those that practice at night. Jeez. I don't get why it has to become such a personal issue.
 
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#112
IamGroot said:
We are 95 posts or so in, and no conclusive reasons why metronomes are bad. I don't want to beat this topic to death, unless someone has a unique view on this.

I auditioned with a guitarist for a set of band sub gigs a while back. About two minutes into the first tune, he stopped and said I wasn't grooving. Actually he was slowing down while singing, especially when changing chords. I held my tongue. A few more tries and I hinted I was holding steady time to which he replied, that everyone in the band including the drummer would follow his lead on time. At that moment, I knew it was over. I held my tongue but conveniently forgot a lot of the tunes, so I could gracefully exit, apologizing that I wasn't good enough for his band.I knew I would never see him again, but I also knew I was getting out of there without getting knifed. (Tommy Tedesco common sense).

So I have been a big fan of the metronome almost as long as I have been playing bass -30 years. The 30 years prior to that, I played guitar so I didn't need a metronome (sarcasm). My interest in metronome started with a very thorough butt kicking form the college jazz director (ala Whiplash) for which I am eternally grateful..

My tempo "hold" today is pretty good, but I practice just to make sure. I can "hear" each of the 8th note subdivsions in a measure and can put a note where I want it by feel without counting at fast tempo. That internalizing comes from metronome practice. Wish I could do it with 16ths, but not yet, and haven't worked at it.

I build repertoire, technique and speed using the metronome and I am not ashamed to play at half tempo (or slower) initially to get something right. One of my personal weaknesses is letting note values blur, so gnome workouts keep me honest.

Along the way, I used a lot of metronome set to beat at 2 and 4 for jazz and 1 & 3 for those crazy a240 BPM salsa tunes.
Click to expand...
Ashamed to play at half tempo?
Depending on the specifics, I could slow down metronome to 20% of the song’s/composition’s/exercise’s tempo and I am proud of it.
N.B. I agree with Lownote38 that there’s not too much to explore for an advanced musician while playing samo-samo country music pattern, but work is work.
 
#114
IamGroot said:
First off, this thread is not about bashing any bass players.

I am just trying to understand a reasoning why metronomes dont help players learn good time. I have read the arguments.and watched the videos against metronomes, but I don't get it. If someone can summarize that argument convincingly, I would like to hear it.

Btw, I use the metronome pretty much daily, especially when learning tricky pieces. I am a big believer in the gnome.
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I’ve used them from time to time, but don’t rely on it on a regular basis.

As for meter, while some sway is ok, too much will violates the laws of physics. The time element of music can’t not be understated. Too slow and music becomes listless. Too fast and it loses the impact of the space between the notes. A good arranger will come up with the proper meter for maximum effectiveness, and there is nothing wrong with keeping as close as you can to it. Just my two bits.
 
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#116
ElectroVibe said:
I'm bothered by some of the serious responses here. I though music was supposed to be fun. If a band was that serious about their timing and that kind of technical stuff I don't think I would even enjoy the music that much. It starts to sound artificial.
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Keep in mind the alternative is bad time.... Drummers who have good time don't have fun playing with a bassist with bad time and vice versa... We are not talking about a click track but if you have good time you can play on top of the beat and behind the beat when it is necessary.
 
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#119
Cliff Colton said:
Jeff is right. Using a metronome to practice music will result in music that sounds like a metronome. Jeff doesn’t want your music to sound like a midi machine, I think that’s his point.
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JoJo Mayer intentionally tries to sound like electronic drums. I don't hear that even he can come close to sounding like a midi machine. There's no way a bass player who plays with a metronome will either.

 
#120
I can't say that all of you are missing the point, but most of you are.

If you think you have good time, record yourself with a metronome.

First play right on the beat. Then play just behind the beat. Then play just in front of the beat. Not dragging, not rushing. (Watch Whiplash, you'll see what I'm talking about. If you have a clue, you know what I mean. This is a Rolling Stones master class, BTW.)

Victor Wooten has a video on YouTube where he says, set your metronome to one beat per sixty seconds. (You do the math on beats per minute.) Just walk around the house with that beat going. When the metronome clicks, snap your fingers. If you're late, figure out why. If you're early, figure out why. It's hard as hell to do right, BTW. But if you master that, you will be that much closer to having good time. And great time should be every bass player's goal. If not, why are you playing?
 

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