The Major Fourth

[Lowness]

I don't touch the forth - it is sonic evil.

It doesn't work.

Read about avoid notes.

Avoid note - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[mrbell321]

That's fair. I probably overstated the "it's easier" piece. I do think it's easier, but that doesn't mean I didn't use a third, too. Sometimes I am headed down to the third(just passing), and sometimes I wanted a different way around that area.

Where I fall down is less on the physical, and more that I just don't hear a conflict. I'm not saying that it's not there, just that I don't have the ear to hear it.

Which actually goes right back to the real intent my original question. I was curious why 4 doesn't get discussed much as a choice for building basslines. Sounds like a lot of people feel it's a "don't", so it's less that it doesn't get discussed, and more that a verdict may have been rendered. I guess I'll work on listening to why it's a "don't"

 

[Clef_de_fa]

Umm, yeah. As a diatonic passing tone, as I said. You won't find country or folks basslines playing a 2-feel "root-4th" line.

but you could play C 3rd fret A string and G 3rd fret E string which is maybe what the OP is into ... in fact he is playing the 5th below the root ... but still calling it a 4th

 

[mrbell321]

So... I am the "OP" in that context? 'cause I don't think I specified above or below the root... and typically, I would guess I play a 4th above more often than a 4th below... but maybe not. It would depend on what else is happening...

 

[Clef_de_fa]

So that's interesting, and I've never heard it stated that the 11th is typically higher. In fact, one page I read, or lesson I saw on youtube, the takeaway was that above 8 the scale wraps around and so 11 is literally exactly the same as 4, but just a different type of vocabulary. I guess you get what you pay for!

Anyway, given that the idea is to avoid clashing of 2 notes a semitone apart(which I totally get), here's where I think a 4 in a bassline may work in any place an 11th might work: Generally, notes on the bass are going to be an octave(or more) below the guitar. So there should be little chance of a G2 clashing w/ the F#3 of a D major on the guitar. Right?
Keyboards, pianos or some other large range instrument would be different... luckily my band doesn't have one of those...

You should try a piano or keyboard and try stuff like putting the 4th in the cluster and then put it an octave higher to hear what it does to the chord flavor. The idea behind calling a 4th an 11th is to be sure you'll take a specific voicing and make sure you avoid a cluster of the 4th and the 5th in the middle of the chord ...

 

[mambo4]

I would agree with those who say the fourth really wants to be a different chord

 

[Lowness]

I find the forth really hard to hit - it is an awkward finger to use.

The third should be on your pointer finger, no?? Is this not easier?


How are you doing your fingering???

 

[vin*tone]

Your note choice should articulate the chord. The 3rd is important bc it plays a big part in distinguishing the Major from the Minor - as does the 7.

 

[Lowness]

Your note choice should articulate the chord. The 3rd is important bc it plays a big part in distinguishing the Major from the Minor - as does the 7.

Does it not play THE part in distinguishing the minor?

I live off the 3rd.

 

[mrbell321]

I find the forth really hard to hit - it is an awkward finger to use.

The third should be on your pointer finger, no?? Is this not easier?


How are you doing your fingering???

I think people w/ large hands really have no idea what people w/ small hands have to deal with...

 

[vin*tone]

Does it not play THE part in distinguishing the minor?

I live off the 3rd.

Its a good place to live.

Minor 6 and 7 also do it. (waits for nitpicking comments on melodic minor etc...) but yeah the 3rd drives the bus on articulating that chord.

Root is the root, 5 reinforces it, 3rd is garlic. 7th is the chives, 6th is a dash of pepper.

 

[Lowness]

If I am playing minors, commonly don't even play the root note, just the third. Helps mix it up with good tone.

This approach doesn't work as well for major chords.

 

[tonemachine]

So, this is going to be a convoluted question, maybe...
When improv-ing, I use major fourth's alot, primarily because it is convenient to hit. I could hit the third instead, but it's a bit more of a reach, so I play cleaner on the fourth. I've read around online and I see focus on other degrees:
Most common: 1/root
2nd most common: 5th
3rd: Octave
4th: the third
5th: 6th or 7th
then maybe the 9th? or 13th?

The fourth doesn't ever seem to come up. I don't know that I ever play it emphasized, but I guess my question is...
how common are fourths in your bassline and do you use them as anything other than passing notes?

No kidding, good post. I've heard/read several times from teachers/writers to "avoid the fourth." I think that perhaps they mean "be careful about landing on the fourth." Maybe? I dont know. A couple of years ago when discussing theory stuff, I, indeed, asked my friend who is a bona fide world-class jazz guitar player "the fourth should be avoided, right?" He said something like "no way. The fourth is great, I use it all of the time and you can, too. It's great because its neither major nor minor and can be safely used in both major or minor keys, plus it adds great color." I'd hate to attribute my stupid words to him so my words may be a loose paraphrase of his words. The point is that it can be used. If it sounds good, use it.

I'd love to hear an ardent teacher of "avoid the fourth" justify that assertion. That's my two cents in support of your using the fourth. Now I'll go read the other replies and hope to see a justification of why the fourth should be avoided.

 

[tfer]

In the D Major scale Dorian - 2nd degree:
E F# G A B C# D E (E Dorian)

Here is my simple Slap riff in E Dorian.
What should I do with that C# note that I use profusely in that riff?
(Sorry, no drums, just my unplugged bass while sitting outside.)

I was quoting A Dorian - second degree of G major.

In the D Major scale Dorian - 2nd degree:
E F# G A B C# D E (E Dorian)

Here is my simple Slap riff in E Dorian.
What should I do with that C# note that I use profusely in that riff?
(Sorry, no drums, just my unplugged bass while sitting outside.)

I was quoting A Dorian (2nd degree of G), to keep everything in A minor.

Your riff is great, but it's in Amaj.


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[Lowness]

No kidding, good post. I've heard/read several times from teachers/writers to "avoid the fourth." I think that perhaps they mean "be careful about landing on the fourth." Maybe? I dont know. A couple of years ago when discussing theory stuff, I, indeed, asked my friend who is a bona fide world-class jazz guitar player "the fourth should be avoided, right?" He said something like "no way. The fourth is great, I use it all of the time and you can, too. It's great because its neither major nor minor and can be safely used in both major or minor keys, plus it adds great color." I'd hate to attribute my stupid words to him so my words may be a loose paraphrase of his words. The point is that it can be used. If it sounds good, use it.

I'd love to hear an ardent teacher of "avoid the fourth" justify that assertion. That's my two cents in support of your using the fourth. Now I'll go read the other replies and hope to see a justification of why the fourth should be avoided.

My teacher explained it though I can't remember. Avoiding it made sense due to some sort of inversion relationships - perhaps some here can remind me.

The forth doesn't sound as nice as other notes in a basic sense, though certainly it can add colour if you use it correctly. I use minor thirds in majors for this purpose though certainly it is not something to advise as a blanket approach.

 

[StinkFoot]

I find the forth really hard to hit - it is an awkward finger to use.

It depends where you're coming from. If you're moving up from the root in second position, then yes, M3 is going to be easier - you'll usuallly finger 2->1, but you're if you're descending on the neck, after you started with finger 4 for example, the 4th is generally a bit easier to hit without shifting slightly - other cases also.The OP is talking about in a solo.

 

[StinkFoot]

6th is a dash of pepper.

Sharped 4ths and 5ths are the hot sauce....

 

[Pelao]

I use the fourth to make a "tame" progression. I - IV is very neutral and can be molded to tons of styles. Even if the guitarist is playing a C Major Chord over my F, I still hear it as an FMaj9, rather than a weird C chord. This is nice because if the melody has an E, then it sounds like a major 7th, which can totally shape the color of the lyrics, good or bad.

Another use for the fourth is as a trill for the third. It is a very stable movement. You can also do some nice suspensions with the band going from IV to I in first inversion to soften the progression even more.

 

[StinkFoot]

I use major fourth's alot, primarily because it is convenient to hit

That's bad. You need to be able to play all the relevant notes well and not make musicial choices based on what's easier to play, but on how you want things to sound.

(If you're finding the M3 that much harder to hit than the 4, IMO you should be examing your technique - it should not be that much of a difference to you that it's compromising your playing. I have small hands and I play a full scale 5 string - I feel your pain but it just means you have to find a comfortable ax and do drills that strengthen your hands and not let your chops slide.)

how common are fourths in your bassline and do you use them as anything other than passing notes?

I understand you're trying to get an academic perspective on this issue or maybe you're worried about reputation, so at the risk of sounding like a complete moron: Does the sound work for you? Is it working for others you're playing with? If so, play it. If not, don't play it. Theory and academic discussions are just tools for helping you figure out how to play what sounds good - that is what music is really all about: Let your ears be the judge.

Regarding passing notes as opposed to your fundamental line, to make it broader, I'll say it's not really about the note you're playing now, but about what you play before it and after it. If you want alleviate some of your "guilt", spend some time with the music of Thelonious Monk - he didn't worry much about teachers' rules...

Heard:

There's no such thing as a bad note, only a bad resolution.

 

[tfer]

WOW!!! I did not know that I play that simple riff in A maj without never touching A.

P.S. Maybe you meant to say A7 chord not Amaj, like Em7/A7 vamp?

You never have to play the root. It's implied by everything else that's going on.

Avoid notes aren't necessarily to be avoided - they are more 'be careful' notes. You can pass through them in a phrase, but by leaping to them, or pivoting on them, or hanging on the note, it implies the other chord. As has been stated countless times before, for hundreds of years, there are no wrong notes, just bad resolutions; and avoid notes are the scalar tones that are the most difficult to resolve well, but they can be - it just takes experience.

If you can, take that same riff, transcribe it and record it with a guitar comping an Emin chord pattern. It would make a great exercise in this discussion and might help people who are starting out.