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The Major Fourth

#61
Thank you BrewsterRooster. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

You have in one post, with the way you have worded and explained things, increased my understanding of theory and knowledge.

This is one BIG reason why I have been enjoying playing bass so much. I only started on bass less than 18 months ago after 30 years of guitar where I knew virtually nothing about theory other than major and minor scales with an emphasis on pentatonics.

Initially on bass I used what i've been referring to as bass chord shapes. Not sure if it is correct terminology but it works for me seeing the 1,3,5 pattern and then being able to move that shape relative to the root and play along with most chords without having to just stay on the root.

Starting off with basic major chords (root, 3, 5, and octave) and minors (root, b3, 5 and octave) mixed with pentatonic fills or lead-in lines i was able to start and lay down decent lines for most songs. I then got used to using the 6, 7, (and yes, the 4) where needed and lately have been using different chord shapes and inversions to enable more interesting lines and easier movements up and down the fret board. The explanation above has given me more encouragement to further explore different additions to chords to try.

The layout and standard tuning of bass, and in particular the fact that we generally play each note of a chord separately, has shown me more than anything else how chords and chord progressions work. This has also made it possible for me to teach my kids more theory as I am able to take it over to guitar. Keep threads like this coming...... i love it!!
 
#62
You're very welcome, sir. I'm glad somebody was able to get something out of all that...

"Chord shapes" and "chord geometry" are used interchangeably, and they apply equally to all of the scales and modes. In truth, if you can learn the shapes (as you already have) for major and minor triads, then add diminished and augmented triads, and finally develop an understanding of the different types of sevenths and when to use them, there won't be much music you can't comp in some capacity. And it sounds like you already have a handle on the melodic uses for 6ths and even 4ths. Upper chord extensions (9, 11, 13), along with their typical alterations (whether diatonic, sharped, or flatted), are good to learn if your goal is to intellectualize chord structure. But honestly, you'll develop far more functional bass skills by getting scales, modes, chord geometry, and multi-octave arpeggios under your fingers. On bass, as you've observed, the name of the game is stringing the right notes together in the right places.

Glad to hear you're enjoying the instrument!
 
#63
Cheers Brewster,

Multi-octave arpeggios is exactly what i was trying to articulate in regards to other shapes and inversions that i've been working on recently.

I don't want to take this thread off topic but I really have no idea where or when to use diminished and augmented triads. I know the shapes/geometry from using several resources (i've found this a good one to have on my tablet and use it a LOT) but don't know their uses. It's very rare that I see a diminished chord in the music I play and can't say i've ever seen and augmented chord at least written down anyway.

If the mods think this should be in a separate thread (or even a private conversation) just say so.

As for enjoying bass..... addicted to the point of thinking about little else these days is closer to the truth. It's actually starting to worry me :laugh: but only a little :bassist::bassist::bassist:
 
#64
joebar said:
if you are implying a baked potato,then the #11 is the sour cream
Click to expand...

Tony Grey has a video where he demonstrates (starting at about the 2:30 mark) how a #11 fits better into a Maj7 chord than the 11. It takes about another minute before he actually get to show the difference, using a CMaj7, in the 2 notes (F# vs F), but sonically the #11 does sound "better".

 
#65
BAG said:
I don't want to take this thread off topic but I really have no idea where or when to use diminished and augmented triads.
Click to expand...

The diminshed triad is one
built on the major 7th of the root ex; a Bdim (or 7-)in the key of C. You play B, D, F You could add the A as a minor 7 in arpeggio

or built on the augmented fourth ex; an F#7- in the key of C major

The augmented 5th triad (aug, 7/5+ or /5+) is also often used in jazz, Be bop et, and gives a nice "final" progression such as

...Dm7 / G/5+ / C7 A7 /Dm7 G/5+...

for a Blues, or Be Bop in C where you have a succession of Fourths. You play G, B, D# for thr G5+

The D# is the minor third of the home tone of C, therefore giving you your blue note, adding a tension which is resolved with the return to the top of the form with your C chord, or your final C note.

All that would give you a 12 bar Blues of

C7 / F7 / D7 / GM7 C7 /

F7 / F#7- / D7 / A7 /

Dm7 / G7/5+ / C7 A7 / Dm7 G7/5+ /




BAG said:
.... and can't say i've ever seen and augmented chord at least written down anyway.
Click to expand...

Look up the Beatles Compleat for guitar/Piano

Hope this helps.
 
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#66
Thanks for that Pony. Rooster also gave me an explanation via PM and between the two i've got a bit of work to do.


Imaginary Pony said:
Look up the Beatles Compleat for guitar/Piano

Hope this helps.
Click to expand...

funnily enough i owned that book as a teenager and if I saw any chord that wasn't a major, minor, m7 or dominant 7 i wouldn't play that song as i had no idea what it was and the internet didn't exist.:laugh:
 
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#68
static0verdrive said:
TL;DR replies so I'm sure it's been said, but a perfect fourth isn't a chord tone (not a note in most chords) so this is why it won't always sound good and why you don't see it talked about much as a note option for the bass to play under most chords.
Click to expand...

That explanation does not satisfy me. The 6th is also not a chord tone, but it gets discussed and used ALOT and sounds just fine.

However, someone else noted that a Major 6th is a whole tone above a perfect 5th and whole tone below a Major 7th, whereas the perfect 4th is only a semitone above a Major 3rd. So, I think the full explanation does make sense if you go back to Roosters(and others) description of stacked thirds. Basically, it keeps everything spaced wide enough to not clash.

Thanks Rooster!
 
#69
Whousedtoplay said:
It worked for me.
I've just decided to incorporate that sonic evil - the forth (with that "AVOID" 6th also) in Em7.
No backup drums, just my unplugged Jazz Bass (with post-production chorus) while sitting outside; therefore, the Double Thumb gives some sense of rhythm.

P.S. Just don't try to change that Em7 chord on Beat4!
http://www.talkbass.com/attachments/em7-4-6-mp3.592942/?temp_hash=2e0e243cafe23dbadb55a9dfaeccd6e8
Click to expand...

Once again, you have no harmonic center. There is nothing holding a chordal point, so it's nothing more than a bass solo, and without an harmonic framework, you can play anything you like. Play that while a guitarist or pianist comps the chord changes, and it would change how you hear it significantly.

But any solo instrument can play anything it wants, because there is no chord structure in place.
 
#70
mrbell321 said:
That explanation does not satisfy me. The 6th is also not a chord tone, but it gets discussed and used ALOT and sounds just fine.

However, someone else noted that a Major 6th is a whole tone above a perfect 5th and whole tone below a Major 7th, whereas the perfect 4th is only a semitone above a Major 3rd. So, I think the full explanation does make sense if you go back to Roosters(and others) description of stacked thirds. Basically, it keeps everything spaced wide enough to not clash.

Thanks Rooster!
Click to expand...

The 6th degree of a minor chord is the avoid, not of a major or dominant. It's because it's a semitone from the 5th, or the 7th depending on the scale used.
 
#72
mrbell321 said:
From the way that's written, it sounds like you're disagreeing... but what you've said aligns with what I said.... with the addition of the information about Minor chords.
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Not sure what you mean about the way that it's written, but as long as the information is finally clear, great.

4th degree of a major scale is the avoid.
6th degree of a minor scale is the avoid.
 
#73
I hear the 6th go by every time. It sounds flat. Play the 7th and it would smooth it right out, but it's your line.

Like I said, I didn't make the rule - it's been around for a couple hundred years. BTW, it can be broken; Charlie Parker made a career out of it.
 
#74
Like I said - it's your line and you can play it however you like. But it DOES imply a chord change, and you can hear it.

It does sound cool though - but to remain a solid minor line, raising the 6th to the 7th will smooth it out, at the loss of the color you like. It is your line though, and I'm not your producer - play whatever you think sounds good.
 
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#78
mrbell321 said:
That's something I've never understood... The interval and scale degree is a "4th", but suddenly, when talking about a chord, it becomes an 11th. Can you explain the reasoning for that? or point me somewhere that explains it? I've read about it some and the best conclusion I can come up with is "chord tones are odd numbered"
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It'd easier than you think. A fourth is always a perfect fourth but when it's used with a major chord—first, third & fifth—it is a suspended fourth. This is a powerful passing chord often used in church music.
The main deal is the fourth is the root of the 4 chord, as in 1-4-5 rock 'n roll. If you are soloing in your tonic key, you'd only use the fourth note in passing as you were going somewhere else. Or as an 11th which is simply the same fourth an octave higher which has slightly different uses. Trust me, it's easier than you think.
 
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#79
Richard Walters said:
It'd easier than you think. A fourth is always a perfect fourth but when it's used with a major chord—first, third & fifth—it is a suspended fourth. This is a powerful passing chord often used in church music.
The main deal is the fourth is the root of the 4 chord, as in 1-4-5 rock 'n roll. If you are soloing in your tonic key, you'd only use the fourth note in passing as you were going somewhere else. Or as an 11th which is simply the same fourth an octave higher which has slightly different uses. Trust me, it's easier than you think.
Click to expand...
Not quite - A suspended 4th has substituted the 4th for the 3rd.
 
#80
tfer said:
It does sound cool though - but to remain a solid minor line, raising the 6th to the 7th will smooth it out, at the loss of the color you like. It is your line though, and I'm not your producer - play whatever you think sounds good.
Click to expand...

Many years ago, I've played MANY MANY times in numerous bands George Benson's "Masquerade"; therefore, I "unintentionally" got used to those "unsmooth" minor lines.

This Masquerade - George Benson (1976)
 
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