The Major Fourth

[tfer]

I prefer playing 'inside' more. I like a minor line that's as smooth and moody as a well aged whiskey.

 

[static0verdrive]

That explanation does not satisfy me. The 6th is also not a chord tone, but it gets discussed and used ALOT and sounds just fine.

However, someone else noted that a Major 6th is a whole tone above a perfect 5th and whole tone below a Major 7th, whereas the perfect 4th is only a semitone above a Major 3rd. So, I think the full explanation does make sense if you go back to Roosters(and others) description of stacked thirds. Basically, it keeps everything spaced wide enough to not clash.

Thanks Rooster!

Your satisfaction aside, look at chords written in real notation. They look like snowmen, root, third, fifth (and if you keep going, seventh, etc). Four and six aren't in there, but of course there are occasional exceptions. It completely depends on the chord being played, but essentially the key sig and/or chord will determine if you should use the major or minor third (same goes for seventh); that's about it. Of course you can use the fourth, or sixth, or any note, but usually as a passing tone, as a stepping stone to the next chord (which may contain that note as a chord tone of THAT new chord... or it may not). It's just intermediate musical theory, not my opinion or magic. I'm of the opinion there are no "rules" anyway with music, just "best practices" for what usually sounds good. Of course you can stray from that.

 

[static0verdrive]

The 6th is also not a chord tone, but it gets discussed and used ALOT and sounds just fine.

"Sounding fine" doesn't make it a chord tone - i.e. a note in the chord you're playing under. That in turn doesn't mean you CAN'T play it, it just isn't guaranteed to work like an actual note from the chord will undoubtedly.

 

[tfer]

"Sounding fine" doesn't make it a chord tone - i.e. a note in the chord you're playing under. That in turn doesn't mean you CAN'T play it, it just isn't guaranteed to work like an actual note from the chord will undoubtedly.

Exactly - it will be added as an extension of the written chord, ie Gmaj13.

 

[mrbell321]

Your satisfaction aside, look at chords written in real notation. They look like snowmen, root, third, fifth (and if you keep going, seventh, etc). Four and six aren't in there, but of course there are occasional exceptions.

I understand this... but it doesn't answer the original quesiton of why the 6th gets attention in discussions and lessons and the 4th does not.

It completely depends on the chord being played, but essentially the key sig and/or chord will determine if you should use the major or minor third (same goes for seventh); that's about it.
Of course you can use the fourth, or sixth, or any note, but usually as a passing tone, as a stepping stone to the next chord (which may contain that note as a chord tone of THAT new chord... or it may not). It's just intermediate musical theory, not my opinion or magic. I'm of the opinion there are no "rules" anyway with music, just "best practices" for what usually sounds good. Of course you can stray from that.

On that, I think we agree...

 

[markjsmithbass]

I've never liked the term 'Avoid Note'. It kind of goes along with that mindset that says "These notes work - These notes don't - Go forth and make music" It's so, so generalised.

 

[static0verdrive]

The main deal is the fourth is the root of the 4 chord, as in 1-4-5 rock 'n roll.

YES. This is important to remember. If the band changed to a different chord, you aren't playing the fourth any more. You're playing the (whatever related to the new chord, in this example, the root AKA 1 of the "4-chord" in the song). Intervals are all relative.

I think we are going to disagree PERMANENTLY.

Here is almost the same bass-line (no "FEEL") with some rhythm guitar that I've transcribed with Power Tab.
The sound file:

http://www.talkbass.com/attachments/em7-4-6-2-mp3.593002/?temp_hash=58b1d69d9e1b39bc12e640005c36e4a9


View attachment 593000 View attachment 593001

Just because the bassist wrote a line with the A note in it doesn't mean it's in the chord. There's no A in Em7add9. I noticed the clef was conveniently chopped off the guitar chord notation part but I'm assuming it's treble clef...

EDIT: Yeah I think I'm right - 2nd fret on E string is not A - it's the 9th you're adding to the Em7.

 

[static0verdrive]

it doesn't answer the original quesiton of why the 6th gets attention in discussions and lessons and the 4th does not.

Fair enough. I can't really answer that aside from, depending, the 6th can sound good sometimes. I read an article in Bass Player last year about how melodic basslines are "all about the sixth". That said, I've had trouble fitting them in well - it seems rare I can get it to work.

 

[joebar]

Tony Grey has a video where he demonstrates (starting at about the 2:30 mark) how a #11 fits better into a Maj7 chord than the 11. It takes about another minute before he actually get to show the difference, using a CMaj7, in the 2 notes (F# vs F), but sonically the #11 does sound "better".

I know that thx.
that's why its the sour cream which is a good thing

 

[mambo4]

I read an article in Bass Player last year about how melodic basslines are "all about the sixth". That said, I've had trouble fitting them in well - it seems rare I can get it to work.

May be you need a good example

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Just because the bassist wrote a line with the A note in it doesn't mean it's in the chord. There's no A in Em7add9. I noticed the clef was conveniently chopped off the guitar chord notation part but I'm assuming it's treble clef...

EDIT: Yeah I think I'm right - 2nd fret on E string is not A - it's the 9th you're adding to the Em7.

WHEN DID I SAY THAT THE "A" NOTE (or C#) IS IN THE CHORD?
It's in my bass-line but not in the chord.

Sorry for "chopping that treble clef...

 

[static0verdrive]

WHEN DID I SAY THAT THE "A" NOTE (or C#) IS IN THE CHORD?
It's in my bass-line but not in the chord.

Sorry for "chopping that treble clef...
View attachment 593113

ok ok I was just pointing out A isn't in there because your post made it sound to me like you were trying to point out that the fourth (top line in the bass clef) was in the chord (the "2" in the top line of the chord tab looked highlighted, but it's a different clef). Apples-to-apples

 

[chungweishan]

But I REALLY like that 6th and the 4th.
I've already started receiving "Free Pre-paid Cremation" letters;
therefore, if I want to play that 6th - I WILL PLAY IT no matter what.
It's just ME.

P.S. I've changed the guitar to the piano for better sound of that E minor7/add9.

http://www.talkbass.com/attachments...5/?temp_hash=fdd3e86dd569a70b7246d21b4a51ba51

What it sounds like is a ||: Em9 A13 :|| vamp.

Even if one instrument (the piano) isn't intentionally playing an A13, it's the end result of adding the bassline that suggests it because the use of C# A and G notes.

If I strummed a C major chord, and then someone added an A bass, it's going to sound like a Am7. That's why it's generally avoided, and used mostly as a passing note.

Since there's no melody that you're supporting, you could virtually go way outside the Em9 if you want as long as it hopefully resolves to the chord. Whatever you do, you have to remember that you might be unintentionally changing the style or feel of the song by adding outside notes.

 

[mambo4]

"because it sounds good" is a fine reason.
"because it sounds good with the chords" is a better reason
"because it sounds good with the melody" is the best reason

 

[Imaginary Pony]

allowed me to play the "avoid-under-any-circumstances" 4th even on Beat 1.

"Avoid note" doesn't mean "avoid-under-any-circumstances" at all though, does it?

It's a reminder that it's a difficult note to place on a strong beat, because it has a tendency to change the tonal center. You can find and create numerous runs and grooves using the fourth, but if you choose not to do so, it makes life easier.

I doubt you'll find anyone who will say "never use the 4th", it's just too easy to find instances of it being used. As a passing tone it's fine, but on a strong beat it takes some forethought and good resolution to pull off.

Do it with a simple blues backing track, using the 4th during the I chord. You'll see there how it's less easy to place than you do when noodling solo.

 

[Groove Master]

Just to sum up something about that fourth thing:

A C chord over a F bass C/F is a fantastic pedal note forming a F Maj9 without the 3rd if desired. It does fit beautifully if it is intended.

Also the fourth degree over a minor chord is a great way to produce a suspended 7th chord like Cmin/F is producing a F9sus4

 

[Imaginary Pony]

[QUOTE="Whousedtoplay, post: 17199776, member: 243483"
Don't except any DOGMAS.[/QUOTE]

Nobody seems to be offering dogma, merely advice on how to use the 4th.

 

[Imaginary Pony]

Thank you for your response. This morning, I followed your advice, "Do it with a simple blues backing track, using the 4th during the I chord" while "noodling on my unplugged Jazz Bass.
I've just added that 4th everywhere.
Here is an excerpt of my "noodling" with some "post-recording" chorus & other effects added.)

http://www.talkbass.com/attachments...9/?temp_hash=ea433a3dc7fef29ac4cb366c8b363a26

Nice riff, shame I couldn't hear the backing track. You seem to be using the 4th as a passing note, as other people have said, and the only time you appear to dwell on it is when there's a change up or down to the IV chord.

If I'm wrong, could you post the sheet music to check against?

 

[Lobster11]

Earlier in this thread, several people suggested that the reason the 4 is an "avoid" note (except as a passing tone) is that it clashes with the adjacent 3rd. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't another (and perhaps more important) reason that it clashes with the major 7th, to which it relates as a tritone?

 

[Imaginary Pony]

Once upon a time (23 years ago), I was good with all those hardware sequencers.
Now, I'm trying to learn that DAW programming stuff - Sonar X3, PreSonus Studio One - but it's still a long way to go.

Here is the gist of my 12 bar blues in E:
View attachment 595908

Thanks. As you so helpfully point out, the 4th is used on the 2nd and 4th beat. So, you seem to agree with me. That's good!