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The NEW acoustic 360/361....
- Thread starter Buster Brown
- Start date
It sounds better than it looks - I know that's hard to believe. I am so thrilled with it.
"The Man" brought the rigs into Steve's Music in Toronto today to have the guys at the store assess it all & say that orders were able to be taken now. It's pretty expensive, up here at least. My understanding is that an "offshore" version will be in production to provide a lower cost alternative.
I missed being able to do a test drive by a couple hours. Got any idea how pi$$ed I am!!! A buddy who is a great bass player who works there said it was quite an eye opener. It's really difficult to appraise this folded horn rig in a store because it takes LOTS of room out front to hear it come on. It's a "long thro".(can't speak for the 15" as I've never heard it.) For a bar room gig, you are missing the point IMO. This is an auditorium rig.
B.
I missed being able to do a test drive by a couple hours. Got any idea how pi$$ed I am!!! A buddy who is a great bass player who works there said it was quite an eye opener. It's really difficult to appraise this folded horn rig in a store because it takes LOTS of room out front to hear it come on. It's a "long thro".(can't speak for the 15" as I've never heard it.) For a bar room gig, you are missing the point IMO. This is an auditorium rig.
B.
BurningSkies
CRAZY BALDHEAD
- Feb 20, 2005
- 27,956
- 20,350
- Disclosures
- Endorsing artist: Dingwall Guitars
Long throw, huh?
I could be wrong but isn't the folded horn design an attempt to try to control the disbursement of the sound, in other words "focus" it's projection. I mean - what is the point of using a folded horn rather than a conventional baffle design? If someone can convince me otherwise rather than just repeating that it's a myth, I'm all ears. Someone else mentioned elsewhere that it's the room reflections when heard at a distance from the cab that create the apparent long throw perception. What is the folded horn if not a "room" that is reflecting sound waves. I'm not saying that the bass can't be heard as well up close - just that it's more focused at a distance. JBL 4560 PA bins (double flare w/ driver @ centre) are an example of this long throw design. I have built these bins professionally back in the 1970's & many top acts seem to have agreed that there was substance to the design. A "w" horn is another good design for long throw IMO. The JBL 4530 (single scoop at the bottom w/ driver on top) was a short throw design.
JBL also designed the K145 (steep cone bass driver) to be efficient at focused long distance projection. I tried this driver in JBL cab but it's extensive voice coil travel was problematic.
I personally think the folded horn is a dated design but hey, what do I know - right?
B.
BurningSkies
CRAZY BALDHEAD
- Feb 20, 2005
- 27,956
- 20,350
- Disclosures
- Endorsing artist: Dingwall Guitars
The term 'long throw' doesn't mean that you can't hear a speaker from close up. It means that the higher SPL you get from a horn loaded speaker causes the sound to be heard at a greater distance...There's no missing sound at close distance. What you're suffering from is poor off axis response up close in the frequencies that give you definition and that you perceive as 'loud'...that you're catching out front when you move out further because you're ears are catching the waves that a 'beaming' speaker wasn't getting to you at close range and off axis. Also, once you're out in the room you're catching a heck of a lot more room reflections.
But isn't the point of the folded horn to take the room reflections out of the equation so the benefits of focused projection can be applied & appreciated in an environment such as an arena where there are no side walls to aid that projection. This is my point about the cab focusing or "throwing" to greater distance. I think we are saying the same thing - that it sounds best at a distance.
B.
B.
Mr. Foxen
Commercial User
Point of a horn is to be efficient, you get +6db over the band where there is horn loading, equivalent to 4x power into a standard direct radiator. Cost is size, and attenuated higher frequencies, which is made worse by the very wide radiating plane (basically all of the horn mouth) making the higher frequencies directional. So you end up with less highs and mids nearby, even less off to the side, and the standard room cancellations of low end, but a lot of volume for the power. The mid horn in these basically sorts a lot of that out.
Doesn't your explanations validate my original point that it sounds better at a distance?
I wish I had more insight into this horn loading that you obviously understand. Is this principle based on the specific horn configuration?
B.
Mr. Foxen
Commercial User
Depends on the room, and what direction the distance is in. The mid horn is for up close. [Edit: And what you mean by 'better' you could eq it to sound good up close, and it will sound rubbish at a distance.]
Horn loading helps efficiency by improving the coupling of speaker to the air. Kind of over simplified view, but you've effectively stuck the air in the horn to the front of the speaker, so at the much larger mouth of the horn, you have that much more area moving, but air is a bit springy, so the smaller movements of high frequencies are lost. You need enough length in the horn for it to be effective for long bass wavelengths though, the W horn is, I am told, about long enough to horn load to around 90hz.
Driver cones are hard, air is soft, the horn works like a big transformer between the hard cone and soft air. Think big tuba, soft lips making farting sounds and out comes beautiful bass.
The lows coming out of the horn are low and omni directional. You can't really focus the lows unless you use other drivers strategically place to and out of phase to absorb sound in some directions. EASE software can help you model this.
Way back in early days of theater to get decent sound out with just a few watts low and hf horns were long. 11ft for a hf horn. Enough that you had to be careful to place the horns so the phase between the horns was total whack.
The horn length of the 360, and the mid-range horn are both short enough that I doubt any compensation is needed. And the mid horns look to have good dispersion to sound good right in front.
Too bad about hearing off shore production plans. Hope it's just a rumor. But if GC owns the name they may force it.
The lows coming out of the horn are low and omni directional. You can't really focus the lows unless you use other drivers strategically place to and out of phase to absorb sound in some directions. EASE software can help you model this.
Way back in early days of theater to get decent sound out with just a few watts low and hf horns were long. 11ft for a hf horn. Enough that you had to be careful to place the horns so the phase between the horns was total whack.
The horn length of the 360, and the mid-range horn are both short enough that I doubt any compensation is needed. And the mid horns look to have good dispersion to sound good right in front.
Too bad about hearing off shore production plans. Hope it's just a rumor. But if GC owns the name they may force it.
Offshoring isn't necessarily a bad thing (for the consumer anyway). It's possible to create a quality product with overseas production these days. If it results in a modern, affordable 360 of reasonable quality hitting the market in decent numbers I'm not going to complain.
I just want to take a second here to say thanks for all the input from those with understanding. I just built them.
But I did hear the 360 back when & it did sound REAL good from afar. JPJ must have had good reason.
B.
EDIT: : Just a smile from the past.
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But I did hear the 360 back when & it did sound REAL good from afar. JPJ must have had good reason.
B.
EDIT: : Just a smile from the past.
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The new 360 design is owned by Acoustic USA and there are no plans for cheap knockoffs to be built. GC uses the Acoustic name on their current line of cheap foreign made amps. The new 360 is hand built in the USA to Russ Alee's specs. Why do people start these rumours? Nothing better to do?
Sorry you missed it. I was there - both Nigel & Barry played it and said it was awesome. In fact, everyone that walked by said the same thing. Even up close. You may want to try the new 360 yourself before coming to any conclusions about it.
billfitzmaurice
Commercial User
- Sep 15, 2004
- 16,860
- 278
- 76
- Disclosures
- Owner, Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design
It is not. A horn acts as a acoustical transformer, to increase the efficiency of the coupling between the driver and the air. While horns can be configured to achieve specific dispersion patterns that's not their main intent. As for 'long throw', there's no such thing. All point sources are subject to the inverse square law, with SPL decreasing at a rate of 6dB per doubling of distance from the source. A horn and direct radiator that are both 100dB at 1 meter will both be 94dB at 2 meters, 88dB at four meters and so forth.
They have nothing to do with it. Boundary issues and room modes do. Explained here:
BillFitzmaurice.info - View topic - Is there any such thing as a long-throw sub?
That's interesting. George told me some time ago that his agreement with the previous owners of the "Acoustic" name (and grandfathered into GC's purchase of the name) only allowed him to use the name on products manufactured in the USA.
Not IME. This is a common line, but I personally dragged mine around the Holiday Inns and biker bars in Michigan for years. I loved everything about it with a Jazz bass, except that I needed a station wagon to move it to the gig. Had to sell it when we moved west and started driving small cars.
I'll also say right up front that IME, this rig is really well suited yin yang for Jazz basses, but I would way more go for the 810/610 route for a P bass sound any day. And, I believe some of these perceptions depend a lot on player style and the instruments and sound the player is going for.
IMO
That may be true, but the way it reads is it doesn't stop GC from making them offshore.
GC may not be the same amp, or design, but if it looks like an "Acoustic", ...
GC cannot make a 360 or 361 model. That's why they have the B200's and B600's. ONLY Acoustic USA can produce the 360/361's. I think you'd agree that they look quite different, even though they both say "Acoustic".
