The New Bose Amplification System!

[bucephylus]

sounds like you are doing the requisite research. best of luck with the outcome and your descision.

Well, the idea is intriguing, and we are many of us engaged in the eternal epic hero quest for the ultimate tone.

That said, I would personally be a lot more comfortable with the concept if other folks like Jim Bergantino were building drivers and the musicians were free to pick their own amplification sources.

On the other hand, the point line source aspect and minimal amplification appearance parts look very interesting. And so it goes....

 

[fdeck]

Here, I am only engaging in the epic quest for a sensitivity curve.

 

[Scott Lynch]

the insinuation here is that the BOSE got the standing ovation ( which i doubt) and that you couldnt have gotten one using a different product. Give yourself more credit.

OR

the insinuation is that when the BOSE doesnt sound good it is operator error. So, is this BOSE then unlike other PA equip, which sounds good regardless of how you use it or what you put into it? hmmm...

Again, i have no horse in this race other than i was amazed at how terrible the PAS unit was in the situation i described. I guess we used it incorrectly, since we didnt have ten grand worth of them scattered around the stage.

NO, i stick to my initial evaluation. PASS on the PAS.

YM clearly Varies, and such is the spice of life

I am not saying that the Bose itself got a standing ovation, although the thought of that is pretty funny.

What I intended to say is that the sound quality of the performance was sufficient to get the song across the way we intended. Now, granted we were playing jazz at a medium-low volume level, not rock at a loud volume level. The audience response we received, however, was better than I have seen at many of the UD jazz performances I have been to in the past. Alex, the flutist who was giving her degree recital, did an amazing job and the jazz number, the finale of her recital, was merely icing on the cake. I firmly believe that I have attended better performed jazz performances than the one I played in on Sunday, but the audience response was just not the same. Did the Bose help? I think so.

Rock, on the other hand, is a completely different animal. The audience does not want to pleased by crystal clear, CD quality sound. They want their ears and bodies pounded by a powerful sound system, their souls filled by an exciting performance. And that is something that the Bose probably can not do in that situation, unless aided by a house PA. If the PAS doesn't inspire you to give it your all as a PA or as a stage monitor/amp, you'd be doing yourself and your bandmates a disservice by using it. Which is exactly why I understand your point.

Do I believe the Bose is the new standard in amplification? No. For a good rock sound nothing beats an all tube amp hooked up to a sealed cab. But in the situation where a good, clear, hi-fi sound is needed, such as in jazz, the Bose PAS delivers, at least for me.

 

[seamonkey]

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The technology is neither difficult nor expensive. This is the line array box that I use for my home theatre center channel, it cost me less than $30 to build, including the wood. You can find all sorts of information on arrays at :
http://audioroundtable.com/ArraySpeakers/

Great looking speaker. And I bet it sounds just as good.

Are those NSB's? I don't think you can get those anymore.
I can't find anything as cheap, but these look promising:
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[Hawkeye]

I'll admit to being biased about Bose. Everything I've heard of theirs, and I mean EVERYTHING in the consumer electronics area sounds like garbage and they charge premium prices for it. The marketing hype obviously works because they still sell those crappy wave radios.

A local high-end audio store I frequent used to have the teeny-tiny Bose speakers and sub-woofer on display even though they were not a Bose dealer, nor did they sell them.

They would compare much less expensive Paradigm bookshelf speakers against them and sold a ton of Paradigm product that way. People came in asking about Bose but went out with boxes of Paradigm. They also had a set that they had taken apart to show how cheaply they were manufactured.

Their older PA stuff sounded like garbage, and the one PAS I heard in our own church auditorium where I am quite familiar with the existing extremely modest PA system sounded like... you know what I'm gonna say, low-fi garbage.

These guys are the quintessential marketing hucksters, always with the "over the top" hype and manufactured terminology.

It's been said a few times in this thread that the PAS is better for lower volume gigs. For the price of just two of those full-range things I could put together a very respectable little system with a Yamaha 16 ch board / QSC amps / Yorkville monitors & mains that I'm sure would slam the PAS into the boards.

 

[Slaine01]

Interesting.
Just sold my Eden World Tour 800 and Epifani 4 x 10 Ultralight box to buy a PAS with a double B1 (Bass Enclosure)!
Now why would I do that ( I have been gigging for over 25 years now...) if the sound was as bad as everybody seems to be making out?
Maybe I am getting old and a form of brain bleeding is going on OR maybe I tried the system out in a live gigging situation and liked it.
I used to be a ".. No Highs No Lows - Must be Bose..." kind of guy but TRY IT OUT - then make up your mind.
It wasn't that long ago that Fender was bought out and started building crap Basses for a while ......and than got back on track.
Did a gig on Friday and gaffed over the Bose logo and told everybody who asked it was a new Aquilar prototype in conjunction with Eden line array speakers - Funny, everybody loved it.....

 

[dunamis]

Slaine-

Thanks for posting, because I thought I had a brain bleed as well! My band's been using PAS's for about 8 months now and we like them a lot.

We trial ran a more extensive set up with four PAS but wound up with just two. They have replaced our PA (approx 400 seat room). Due to the line array aspect of the design, we can place them behind the band, eliminating the need for monitors. The musicians and voaclists all say they can hear themselves fine.

I'm not sure why there's so much animosity toward Bose! Just a mention of the name seem to draw the loonies out in droves!

I think those who bash the PAS should a least have tried them before passing judgement.

IMO-- good choice! I hope you like the PAS as much we do.

Peace,

Matt

 

[MikeBass]

Interesting.
Just sold my Eden World Tour 800 and Epifani 4 x 10 Ultralight box to buy a PAS with a double B1 (Bass Enclosure)!
Now why would I do that ( I have been gigging for over 25 years now...) if the sound was as bad as everybody seems to be making out?
Maybe I am getting old and a form of brain bleeding is going on OR maybe I tried the system out in a live gigging situation and liked it.
I used to be a ".. No Highs No Lows - Must be Bose..." kind of guy but TRY IT OUT - then make up your mind.
It wasn't that long ago that Fender was bought out and started building crap Basses for a while ......and than got back on track.
Did a gig on Friday and gaffed over the Bose logo and told everybody who asked it was a new Aquilar prototype in conjunction with Eden line array speakers - Funny, everybody loved it.....

Are you using it as your bass amp with a traditional PA??
In what context is it being used? Bass/vox/piano? Rock band?
I played thru it by my self and thought it sounded super good (with 2 subs BTW).
Was told point blank by the Bose rep that I would be burried and pissed if I bought it and the rest of the band didn't. It doesn't work to well by itself in a traditional band setting at anything more than low to moderate volume. It's not ment to be a "bass amp"

So, from what I have read here, no one uses it as a stand alone rig unless it's in a low volume, more shall I say acoustic type setting correct?
Has/does anyone use it like this??

 

[bucephylus]

So, from what I have read here, no one uses it as a stand alone rig unless it's in a low volume, more shall I say acoustic type setting correct?
Has/does anyone use it like this??

That was my understanding. You can find a lot more discussion on the Bose site. However, I believe there are a couple TBer's using it in a traditional setup; though I believe it would have to be low volume. I just don't see one of these replacing a DB750 driven bass stack.

 

[MikeBass]

That was my understanding. You can find a lot more discussion on the Bose site. However, I believe there are a couple TBer's using it in a traditional setup; though I believe it would have to be low volume. I just don't see one of these replacing a DB750 driven bass stack.

The thing I liked about it was no matter where I moved to, I could always hear myself.
Either directly in front of it or way off to the side.

 

[dunamis]

Are you using it as your bass amp with a traditional PA??
In what context is it being used? Bass/vox/piano? Rock band?
I played thru it by my self and thought it sounded super good (with 2 subs BTW).
Was told point blank by the Bose rep that I would be burried and pissed if I bought it and the rest of the band didn't. It doesn't work to well by itself in a traditional band setting at anything more than low to moderate volume. It's not ment to be a "bass amp"

So, from what I have read here, no one uses it as a stand alone rig unless it's in a low volume, more shall I say acoustic type setting correct?
Has/does anyone use it like this??

Two PAS's (one with 2 B-1's) have replaced a traditional PA. We still use a mixing board. I go direct to the board through an Avalon U5. The entire band (4 vocalists, mic'd drums, keys, and 2 guitars) go to the board as well, and the mix goes to the 2 PAS.

We play contemporary Christian and Praise & Worship music (in a Church setting) as well as other indoor and outdooe venues for community events and concerts. We don't play at the volume levels that you might have at a club or rock events, but it gets plenty loud for what we do. The gain is set at less than 25% normally, and we used it at an outdoor event with 1500 ppl with it turned up just past half-- it was loud enough that people near the fron couldn't talk to each other without cupping hands to ears or shouting.

For a standalone bass amp, I think I'd choose something else. With 2 B-1's it does pretty well, and as a PA we really like it. But, I think there's better bang for the buck out there if you're just looking for a standalone bass amp.

 

[dunamis]

The thing I liked about it was no matter where I moved to, I could always hear myself.
Either directly in front of it or way off to the side.

+1. We use no stage monitors and don't need the in-ear system that we have.

 

[bucephylus]

The thing I liked about it was no matter where I moved to, I could always hear myself.
Either directly in front of it or way off to the side.

The sound quality seems to be the selling point. But, it seems a "digital" decision for a group to go this route. I like the idea, but am dubious that most guitarists will give up their screaming tubes or drummers turn their volume knobs down. I think it would help if other companies would start producing these kind of systems. The Bose people seem to have a good idea, but if they keep it to themselves, it will be like the Macintosh.

 

[seamonkey]

Bose didn't innovate the line array - anybody can make them. I wish they would, as the Bose PAS sounds great but is overpriced in my opinion. Also, personally I don't think the subs match the array well, but it's easy enough to match another sub the the array.

Bose may not be good for all bands. Some Bands that need to control stage volume by controlling directionality. To be honest, I like to hear myself louder than I would be in the mix. So I situate myself and my amp so I'm in the line of fire.

 

[Slaine01]

I use it as a stand alone and with the 2 x B1's it handles my Marcus Miller 5 easily.
Using the presets in the system is the key and I have also bought the Bass Stand option so that my Bass actually hangs from the unit and not on the stage - for drunk roadies to knock over
Check out these links for some further info:
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[Eggman]

Cool - I just ordered some of those guitar hangers for our PAS systems. Great idea.

 

[Akami]

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I wish you had posted this two days earlier, before I ordered two Ultimate Support stands!

But really, thanks for the link, I'm getting 4 of 'em!

 

[Hawkeye]

Two PAS's (one with 2 B-1's) have replaced a traditional PA. We still use a mixing board.

For a standalone bass amp, I think I'd choose something else. With 2 B-1's it does pretty well, and as a PA we really like it. But, I think there's better bang for the buck out there if you're just looking for a standalone bass amp.

You seem to be using it in a way that Bose probably would woud say was not ideal, with the mixing board up front. That way it's like using mains with a line array having a wide dispersion and forgetting about monitors. If you're liking the results though, who is Bose to argue?

I agree that the PAS makes no sense as a stand-alone bass amp. Altogether a PAS with the base, two 'cylindrical radiators' and two subs weighs 121 lbs. with about 750 watts of total output from Amps 1,2,3 (if I'm reading the specs correctly). Only 250 watts goes to the subs though.

The one thing that would be an absolute deal-breaker for me is that the Amp 3 out (for the subs) is specified to have a bottom end of only 40hz. So much for us five stringers.

Also the output to the subs goes up to 180hz That's pretty high for a straight subwoofer. The PAS sub is really a woofer with upper bass output too, not just a subwoofer. The Bose literature describes its use for bass/baritone instruments. It should probably be placed in close physical proximity to the cylindrical speakers so that no localization (timing) discontinuities show up in that upper bass region.

I know sound is a subjective thing, but I also think I have a pretty good ear, and the PAS I heard made the singers and guitars sound "cardboardy" and thin, without dimension or dynamics. Even with only two voices and two acoustic guitars (which surely wouldn't be taxing the system in a church volume setting) the result was a somewhat low-fi, transistor radio kind of sound. It really lacked body and size. Maybe they were using cheap mics, or their acoustic guitar pickups were cheap I don't know. Garbage in, garbage out I realize, but I was not impressed. Maybe it just proves that any system can sound bad given enough knob twisting.

My frame of reference for that sound byte is when our worship team does an acoustic set with two acoustic guitars using run-of-the-mill Dean Markley sound hole pickups going through a Radial Engineering passive DI straight to the Yamaha MG32 board, out through a Behringer 2500 power amp and then to two flown Electrovoice 2-way small mains speakers. The sound of that low-end set up was infinitely better than through through the Bose PAS.

I can see the advantages for a gigging/travelling small group. There is a certain allure to having your own system that you can set up quickly to sound acceptable without having to rely on the uncertain results of the "happy amateurs" who usually man most church sound systems.

A Bose PAS with two subs is on sale @ MF for $2300 or a double system for $4,500. As a PA only I think one could do a lot better with that kind of money. As a bass amp, I don't think it's a realistic alternative.