The New Bose Amplification System!

[bucephylus]

this is one peice of new gear i actually have some worthwhile experience with. we found it embarassingly unsuitable for a 5 peice rock cover band in a medium room that was filled with about 200 people. it was so bad that the show was stopped and OUR system was taken out and rapidly employed.

the sound may be great in a coffee house setup, but ime (not imo) anything much bigger it is seriously undergunned.

great if you have lots of cash to burn, cant find yourself to billFM's page, dont own any tools, or want something that few others have.

otherwise- PASS


ps- BOSE didnt pay me to write this either.

That system is HIGHLY setup dependent. Can you be more specific as to what gear you had and how it was configured?

The reason I mention this is that almost all attempts to substitute for a standard PA mixed with standard amps have been unsuccessful. The line seems to be that you need one system per player, and the bass and drum units need to be beefed up. If you didn't have that, then poor results are sort of old news. The more interesting information is what people are finding with the full configuration.

 

[Hawkeye]

The reason I mention this is that almost all attempts to substitute for a standard PA mixed with standard amps have been unsuccessful. The line seems to be that you need one system per player, and the bass and drum units need to be beefed up. If you didn't have that, then poor results are sort of old news. The more interesting information is what people are finding with the full configuration.

So, the system doesn't play nice with other forms of amplification. Hmm, that's kind of a problem isn't it. It's all or nothing. The system isn't scalable. You can't add a bit at a time and enjoy the benefits incrementally. To here what the system can do it's all or nothing or you compromise the sound.

That sounds a bit too convenient. Bose can always blame any poor sound on the other legacy bits of equipment that groups use and not their own.

 

[Eggman]

This is all so reminiscent of the original revolutionary Bose pro-sound product of 30 odd years ago, the 802. It was going to become the standard by which all others were to be compared, and drive JBL, EV, Peavey, Fender and all the rest out of business. Over time it faded into relative obscurity, while the 'higher profits through hype' marketing gurus at Bose concentrated their efforts on selling over-priced clock radios. History doesn't necessarily always repeat itself, but in this case I'd count on it.

I played with a jazz group at the Montreux Jazz Festival in 1976. We played both inside and outside and the festival used Bose 802s in every venue. The sound quality was outstanding everywhere we played and at every concert we attended - Scofield, Cobham, McLaughlin, Corea....

 

[Eggman]

So, the system doesn't play nice with other forms of amplification. Hmm, that's kind of a problem isn't it. It's all or nothing. The system isn't scalable. You can't add a bit at a time and enjoy the benefits incrementally. To here what the system can do it's all or nothing or you compromise the sound.

That sounds a bit too convenient. Bose can always blame any poor sound on the other legacy bits of equipment that groups use and not their own.

Not true - there are plenty of instances posted on the Bose PAS forum ([Invalid or Expired Link Removed]) where bands have integrated other amplification with the PAS - with great success. I have also read info from Bose as to how to integrate the PAS with FOH systems - to get better coverage in large rooms.

The system, if used and adjusted properly (like any piece of equipment), is quite flexible, adaptable and reliable.

The Bose people have been great to us - fixing any minor detail without question or delay. They continue to update pre-set settings and listen to their customers for additional product tweaking and development.

 

[dunamis]

Not true - there are plenty of instances posted on the Bose PAS forum ([Invalid or Expired Link Removed]) where bands have integrated other amplification with the PAS - with great success. I have also read info from Bose as to how to integrate the PAS with FOH systems - to get better coverage in large rooms.

The system, if used and adjusted properly (like any piece of equipment), is quite flexible, adaptable and reliable.

The Bose people have been great to us - fixing any minor detail without question or delay. They continue to update pre-set settings and listen to their customers for additional product tweaking and development.

+1

We've been using the product for almost a year now, integrated with FOH board, and we like it.

At this point, I've got to say that this is a just a case of some people having a bias against Bose. Otherwise, I can't account for the deep disparity of the opinions expressed in the thread.

Bose is controversial. I know it's been discussed on other forums with similar results-- strongly held opinions on both sides. One thing I don't get is why some folks seem to dislike-- and even actively hate-- Bose so much. We all know of companies who's products are just not appealing to us, but what is the point in bashing them? Some of the comments in this thread are obviously suspect. I personally know of a number of bands who are using the PAS product with good results.

 

[billfitzmaurice]

At this point, I've got to say that this is a just a case of some people having a bias against Bose. Otherwise, I can't account for the deep disparity of the opinions expressed in the thread.

That does exist. Those in the know are well aware that Bose is terribly overpriced for what's inside, by at least a two to one margin, and that Bose uses marketing practices that border on illegal to artificially maintain the prices that they do. Personally I'd have no problem with the PAS if it was priced based upon the usual industry margins and the consumer was getting what he paid for. But that's not the case, not only with the PAS, but with all of the Bose line.

 

[dunamis]

That does exist. Those in the know are well aware that Bose is terribly overpriced for what's inside, by at least a two to one margin, and that Bose uses marketing practices that border on illegal to artificially maintain the prices that they do. Personally I'd have no problem with the PAS if it was priced based upon the usual industry margins and the consumer was getting what he paid for. But that's not the case, not only with the PAS, but with all of the Bose line.

Wow! You sound kind of bitter, Bill!

Perhaps you once worked for them or something? Maybe there's something you're not telling us.

 

[bucephylus]

Not true - there are plenty of instances posted on the Bose PAS forum ([Invalid or Expired Link Removed]) where bands have integrated other amplification with the PAS - with great success. I have also read info from Bose as to how to integrate the PAS with FOH systems - to get better coverage in large rooms.

The system, if used and adjusted properly (like any piece of equipment), is quite flexible, adaptable and reliable.

The Bose people have been great to us - fixing any minor detail without question or delay. They continue to update pre-set settings and listen to their customers for additional product tweaking and development.

Fine. My point was more or less referring to cases where people have tried to use the L1 as a substitute Main PA system with standard backline amplification. Yes, there are examples of modifications using some hybrid reinforcement approaches that people report working. That was not the point of my post. I was mainly trying to emphasize that lots of people have experience with not making the hardware work. Big deal. What is interesting is what needs to happen to make it work.

 

[dunamis]

Fine. My point was more or less referring to cases where people have tried to use the L1 as a substitute Main PA system with standard backline amplification. Yes, there are examples of modifications using some hybrid reinforcement approaches that people report working. That was not the point of my post. I was mainly trying to emphasize that lots of people have experience with not making the hardware work. Big deal. What is interesting is what needs to happen to make it work.

Well, here's what needs to happen to make it work for us.

1st- everything goes directly to the mixing board.

(Instruments provide DI to the FOH board. Mics go directly to FOH board. Drums are mic'd through a dedicated mixer, then to FOH board.)

2nd- FOH board provides an output to each of the two Bose PAS's.

3rd- there is no 3rd! That's it.

I know it's complicated rolleyes: ) but it works for us and we think it sounds pretty good!

Oh, and as I said before, the best part IMO is: no backline amps, no monitors, and no IEM's. The PAS's are behind the band. The gain is set to provide adequate volume at the back row in the house, and the line arrays allow us to hear exactly what the audience hears, at a comfortable stage volume.

You lost me at "modifications using some hybrid reinforcement approaches..."

 

[bucephylus]

Well, here's what needs to happen to make it work for us.

1st- everything goes directly to the mixing board.

(Instruments provide DI to the FOH board. Mics go directly to FOH board. Drums are mic'd through a dedicated mixer, then to FOH board.)

2nd- FOH board provides an output to each of the two Bose PAS's.

3rd- there is no 3rd! That's it.

I know it's complicated rolleyes: ) but it works for us and we think it sounds pretty good!

Oh, and as I said before, the best part IMO is: no backline amps, no monitors, and no IEM's. The PAS's are behind the band. The gain is set to provide adequate volume at the back row in the house, and the line arrays allow us to hear exactly what the audience hears, at a comfortable stage volume.

You lost me at "modifications using some hybrid reinforcement approaches..."

Reading through the Bose site, there are discussions, particularly for the bassist, of using an extra cab for reinforcing the lows. That's all.

Otherwise, that is interesting information. Are you using the beefed up subs / power supply?

 

[dunamis]

Reading through the Bose site, there are discussions, particularly for the bassist, of using an extra cab for reinforcing the lows. That's all.

Otherwise, that is interesting information. Are you using the beefed up subs / power supply?

One of our two PAS's has 2 of the standard B-1 bass modules. The other has just one.

I too have read about people using more amplification for bass and/or more of the B-1 modules. We play at a volume that I believe most club or stage acts would find too low, so I don't find a need for more bass amps/speakers. But bear in mind that we have the gain on the PAS's set at 25%, so they could get *a lot* louder. I will concede though, that if a band was using these like we do, but at higher gain settings, the bassist may find the need for more headroom (I think Bose is making an additional power amp for this purpose).

I use an Avalon U5 as a pre and I'm giving the house a pretty hot signal relative to the other instruments and mics. That may help some-- not sure-- I'm in over my head now on the tech stuff.

All I know is, when I play a low 'B', you can feel it in the stage no matter where you're standing!

 

[KJung]

I heard one of these systems (two 'towers' with one of the bass modules) as a DJ system and it sounded FANTASTIC. I've never heard a band use one, though. I bet at moderate volumes it would sound great... very balanced and even.

 

[billfitzmaurice]

Wow! You sound kind of bitter, Bill!
Perhaps you once worked for them or something? Maybe there's something you're not telling us.

A few years back an amateur builder (not me) published a set of plans in Speaker Builder magazine, they bore a passing resemblance to an Acoustimass sub, and Bose came down hard on both him and the magazine, threatening patent infringement litigation. Not the smartest move ever, as the leading authority in patent law was an editor of Speaker Builder, who shot down the Bose claim in short order. But the incident was typical of Bose tactics. They're infamous for this sort of behavior.

 

[dunamis]

I heard one of these systems (two 'towers' with one of the bass modules) as a DJ system and it sounded FANTASTIC. I've never heard a band use one, though. I bet at moderate volumes it would sound great... very balanced and even.

Ken,

Just so.

The one "rub" that I have with Bose is that they do push for their concept of a Personal Amplification System (ie: they want roughly one PAS system for each performer and no mixing board).

We tried this with 4 of the units, so we pretty much had one instument and one vocalist per system, but with drums distributed. As our guitarist said "it's back to the garage band days". We found that we gradually got louder and louder. Musicians just cannot be trusted with volume controls!

The decision to reduce the number of PAS's to 2, and go back through the mixing board was twofold:

1) we felt that the soundman has a legitimate purpose in blending instumentation and vocals and controlling overall volume. Regardless of what Bose says, we couldn't get that right doing it ourselves.

2) Honestly, 4 of these things was just overkill for our 500 seat room. With 4 PAS's we had to set the gain down to like 10 or 15% on each unit to keep volume at an acceptable level. During our testing, we unplugged two of them, went back through the board, reset levels, and found the sound to be more pleasing that way.

With our budget, we could have more of these, or we could go with a completely different system. We like the way they sound and, as I've stressed, not having to use in-ears or stage monitors in order to hear youself in the mix is a major advantage. In fact, for me personally, that was the selling point that made me get on board with the decision.

Best,

Matt

 

[Mark Reccord]

I think they have applications where they work and others where they don't.

However, I do find it amusing that they're touting this as breakthrough technology considering that line arrays have been around since the days of Shure vocalmaster columns and virtually every major tour uses a line array system.

 

[Eggman]

I think they have applications where they work and others where they don't.

However, I do find it amusing that they're touting this as breakthrough technology considering that line arrays have been around since the days of Shure vocalmaster columns and virtually every major tour uses a line array system.

Perhaps the "breakthrough" is that the line array technology is available and useful for us that aren't on a major tour.

 

[dunamis]

Perhaps the "breakthrough" is that the line array technology is available and useful for us that aren't on a major tour.

Ya know, I think you may be on to something there eggman!

 

[Mark Reccord]

Ya know, I think you may be on to something there eggman!

Shure Vocalmasters were available to everyone 40 years ago....



While eggman does have a point there, Bose's ad copy does suggest that it's a new technology, i.e. "An Entirely New Approach to Amplified Live Music." When it isn't.

The other thing that isn't mentioned is that the PAS wil only behave like a line array across a fairly limited band of frequencies.

Again, I'm sure they work nicely for certain applications.

 

[dunamis]

Those crazy guys at Bose! They're so naughty!!

But, their stuff do sound good...

 

[KJung]

Shure Vocalmasters were available to everyone 40 years ago....

Man, I haven't thought about the 'Shure Vocal Disasters' for many years... those were not a good thing... even by 40 year old standards.