Double Bass The new "Nadine" mic?

[Drew Tanner]

Chiming in, as kerrycares PM’d me after spotting the Nadine on my bass in the Doubleshot thread. I’ve been using it for almost a year now after scoring a good used deal and am pleased with it.

I have used it through my amps (usually blended with the Fishman Full Circle) in several different small venues. It’s surprisingly feedback resistant at tame drummer volumes in the six-piece Americana/alt-Country group I play with, though there is a fair amount of bleed. Smart positioning of the amp, your own body, and the bass go a long way toward controlling feedback. I usually blend through the Grace Felix which has a notch filter and parametric mid controls for the the occasional problem frequencies. However, I’ve also run it straight into a Markbass LM Tube 500 and a pair of 121 cabinets at moderate-to-loud volume without feed back, using the VLE to gently roll off the highest highs, if necessary. At larger venues or festivals, I’ll use the Felix, as others do, to send the mic to FOH and Full Circle to my amp. It might seem like a lot to fiddle with, but it really adds a warmth and roundness to the tone that the piezo alone lacks on my bass and that my bandmates notice. Our fiddler/mandolin player has asked, “where’s the Nadine?” the few times I’ve left it at home.

 

[Sam Reese]

I've had my Nadine for a while now and can verify that it picks up drums and conga very well! Also, regarding positioning, you can place it between the E & A strings or the D & G strings to change the direction that the capsule is pointing. I like it between the A & D and up close to the bridge. I play in pretty loud live settings, so I use my Lifeline exclusively. I am going to muster the courage to use the Nadine live and will likely run it in my EA Doubler blended with Lifeline with speaker cabinet facing backwards. This is how I've been testing it and am getting the volume significantly louder than having the cab facing forward.

 

[Ric Vice]

...........I usually blend through the Grace Felix which has a notch filter and parametric mid controls for the the occasional problem frequencies........... At larger venues or festivals, I’ll use the Felix, as others do, to send the mic to FOH and Full Circle to my amp. It might seem like a lot to fiddle with, but it really adds a warmth and roundness to the tone that the piezo alone lacks on my bass and that my bandmates notice. Our fiddler/mandolin player has asked, “where’s the Nadine?” the few times I’ve left it at home.

The few times I’ve used a microphone and a pickup together I can’t say that there is enough of a difference to make it worth the extra hassle. The Ehrlund EAP has a very microphone like sound. My Remic Red is an exceptional recording mic and the Remic Green works great FOH. Blending them together is only slightly warmer. The Grace Felix handles both signals well, but I’m looking forward to the second version of the Remic Green. Apparently the Pickup Test website will get their hands on the mic
eventually.

 

[Brad Maestas]

My Nadine had its debut last Friday. It sounded great in a hall with 200 people and a mid-size line array system. I had the Lifeline as a backup but we were able to stay purely on the mic without any issues. Very happy so far!

 

[MrSidecar]

I’ve just ditched my EAP and Dyn-B (which I didn’t use simultaneously) in favor of a Nadine microphone.

Others have marvelled at the engineering quality and it indeed is a thing of well-thought-out beauty. The jack attaches easily, safely and rattle-free, the whole system oozes quality and the capsule mounts equally easily. Since the capsule is detached from the weight of the jack and cable, the thing sits very securely and doesn’t do much to change the sound and response neither pizz or arco.

I tested it in two ways:

First, into a FOH System in my rehearsal room, where it’s used as a vocal PA. As such, my position towards the speakers was not typical of the FOH use case- the speakers hang in the upper corners of the room and I was standing right in the “line of fire” from them. No feedback before things got ridiculous. Great natural sound and really we’re, as anyone suspects from a microphone, firmly into MBOL territory.


Then I tried to emulate a stage amplification situation by turning the master fader of the mixer all the way down and sending the mic signal via aux into an amplifier. The room is equipped with an utter nightmare for the average double bassist, a Hartke 3500 top with a matching 4x10. I’ve never used that much speaker surface area on any scene with double bass.
I was surprised that even standing very close to it, I could get stupid loud (louder than I ever can imagine needing) without feedback, at least pizzicato. Arco is another matter, but anyone needing the kind of volume that resulted in feedback while playing arco should scratch his/her head as to what else could be wrong. The sound of this utterly non-double-bass amp/cab combo was gorgeous. A tad less transparent and more “woolly” as the PA, but still absolutely my bass.

This very much seems like a keeper. I can’t see any trouble in using a phantom supply and into the Walter Woods/MAS26 rig I usually play. And we’re not only talking MBOL, but actually MBOSL (“embozzle”, as in MyBassOnlyStupidlyLoud).

I have yet to try it next to a drummer but I’m very very happy so far.

best
Sidecar

 

[MrSidecar]

I can’t see any trouble in using a phantom supply and into the Walter Woods/MAS26 rig I usually play.

This scenario I have just very recently tried in my living room. A Rolls PB23 as power-supply, into the Broughton HPF-Pre for gain and High-pass reasons, and further into the Woods powering an MAS26 cabinet. Without the extra preamplification, I had to crank the input gain of the Woods all the way up (which says a lot as this amp provides very healthy gain), leaving me with a wish to actually crank it even some more. Makes perfect sense, condenser mic and all. I have the high-pass at slightly under 80Hz wich takes out unwanted excess boom.

The phase switch and the treble control are the most important factors here- both used unwisely will yield feedback, especially the treble control can unleash a very unpleasant shriek. But that's actually happened to me before using the EAP or the Dyn-B, so that's no news. With very tiny adjustments to the mids (as in, cutting a teensy notch), leaving the bass and treble alone, the sound is virtually perfect, and volume-wise it certainly works as well as the contact-microphones I mentioned. Plus, having that much natural punch, I feel that all too much volume actually isn't necessary to give me a solid position in the mix. Now I can only imagine this at this moment, since I'm alone in my living room and not on stage or in rehearsal with a band, but it feels very very good. This still needs some live stage proof, but that'll happen soon as well.

One thing I can on the other hand relate to is this:

The few times I’ve used a microphone and a pickup together I can’t say that there is enough of a difference to make it worth the extra hassle.

This certainly may apply just as well to the whole pickup/mic comparison without using both simultaneously. The contact mics actually sound quite good, and frankly, the only real reason I essentially took the plunge towards the microphone was that I could get one used from a cat nearby (without shipping costs and customs/taxes). I'm now up to two extra boxes to futz with on stage (preamp and power supply), and that could be easier (maybe an ordinary mic preamp with built-in phantom power...?). Still, I feel it's like the pickups CAN sound quite good, but often ended up sounding less than stellar live- where the microphone just delivers and it would need intentionally destructive EQ action to ruin that sound.

All cool now.
Best
Sidecar

 

[Ric Vice]

This scenario I have just very recently tried in my living room. A Rolls PB23 as power-supply, into the Broughton HPF-Pre for gain and High-pass reasons, and further into the Woods powering an MAS26 cabinet. Without the extra preamplification, I had to crank the input gain of the Woods all the way up (which says a lot as this amp provides very healthy gain), leaving me with a wish to actually crank it even some more. Makes perfect sense, condenser mic and all. I have the high-pass at slightly under 80Hz wich takes out unwanted excess boom.

The phase switch and the treble control are the most important factors here- both used unwisely will yield feedback, especially the treble control can unleash a very unpleasant shriek. But that's actually happened to me before using the EAP or the Dyn-B, so that's no news. With very tiny adjustments to the mids (as in, cutting a teensy notch), leaving the bass and treble alone, the sound is virtually perfect, and volume-wise it certainly works as well as the contact-microphones I mentioned. Plus, having that much natural punch, I feel that all too much volume actually isn't necessary to give me a solid position in the mix. Now I can only imagine this at this moment, since I'm alone in my living room and not on stage or in rehearsal with a band, but it feels very very good. This still needs some live stage proof, but that'll happen soon as well.

One thing I can on the other hand relate to is this:



This certainly may apply just as well to the whole pickup/mic comparison without using both simultaneously. The contact mics actually sound quite good, and frankly, the only real reason I essentially took the plunge towards the microphone was that I could get one used from a cat nearby (without shipping costs and customs/taxes). I'm now up to two extra boxes to futz with on stage (preamp and power supply), and that could be easier (maybe an ordinary mic preamp with built-in phantom power...?). Still, I feel it's like the pickups CAN sound quite good, but often ended up sounding less than stellar live- where the microphone just delivers and it would need intentionally destructive EQ action to ruin that sound.

All cool now.
Best
Sidecar

“Little boxes on a hillside” While I love my Walter Woods Electroacoustic Ultra all the machinations listed above are precisely why I sold my Walter Woods MI-400-8 and will in time sell the Ultra. There are so many great preamps and amps that handle microphones with ease. Just my take.

 

[MrSidecar]

“Little boxes on a hillside” While I love my Walter Woods Electroacoustic Ultra all the machinations listed above are precisely why I sold my Walter Woods MI-400-8 and will in time sell the Ultra. There are so many great preamps and amps that handle microphones with ease. Just my take.

Ric,

I do hear you. I’ve been thinking about the EA Doubler II. The thing is, I don’t want to let go of my deeply beloved MI100-8 I - I might never get one again. They’re harder and harder to find and kinda pricey. And I don’t want to collect amplifiers either. So, until the Woods dies on me, I’ll be the dude with all the small boxes (without an effects board).

Best
Sidecar

 

[MrSidecar]

Update from me:

I just returned home from a piano trio rehearsal in a smallish rehearsal space, where I used the Nadine into your typical Yamaha rehearsal space mixer/vocal pa. Wall-mounted speakers on approx. ear-level. Drummer plays perfectly in the realm of very dynamic jazz drummers, sometimes very loud, sometimes very soft (the latter is important- read on). Short grand piano.

I have to admit that I have no recollection of ever having felt so happy, so at ease and at home with my sound in any rehearsal or live situation- this was an outerworldly beautiful experience of MBOL. By the sound quality, I honestly could not tell at any time that I was amplified (but boy, I was!), it felt perfectly natural and just like it always does- only louder. It's almost like listening to a studio recording- truly mind-blowing. It's amazing to actually be able to play very soft in the soft passages and very loud in the louder parts, and everything sounds just perfect, without any of the annoyances I had with all the pickup systems I had used before- and without feedback. Maybe there's bleed, but well- such is life. I didn't hear the drummer or piano player through the PA, so it seems perfectly manageable.

The bee's knees, that's what it is, the Nadine. IMHO.

Best
Sidecar

 

[Ric Vice]

Sidecar,
You could get one of the new Headway EDB-2 H.E.'s when they come out. That would at least combine all your microphone needs into one box. One caveat here, the Woods EQ section sounds

different than the EDB-2. both are very clean, the Woods has more warmth, while the EDB-2 has a more focused low end.

 

[MrSidecar]

Sidecar,
You could get one of the new Headway EDB-2 H.E.'s when they come out. That would at least combine all your microphone needs into one box. One caveat here, the Woods EQ section sounds

different than the EDB-2. both are very clean, the Woods has more warmth, while the EDB-2 has a more focused low end.

Ric
Thanks for the tip. Looks like a good choice to at least make things a little easier, at an ok price point.
As much as I love the the old Walter Woods, it’s just not exactly the right tool for the job, at least not standalone. Regardless, I’ll never sell it. So anything that simplifies the signal chain is worth considering.

Today I was thinking that my current setup when using an amp actually is super error-prone. Boxes can fail, cables can and will fail, and both can easily be forgotten at home... and with an xlr cable, an xlr-to-1/4”jack cable, a patch cable, a preamp and a phantom power supply plus their respective power supplies, things can go wrong many places.

I’m a little confused about the Headway though- it seems the original EDB-2 is still available from Headway direct- when is the new version due out, and how’s it going to be different from the current one?

Or maybe a doubler 2? Even though I virtually never double, and it lacks a proper phase switch (the phase control on the doubler only affects the phase between the two preamp channels). But that’d be single-cable bliss. Yikes, I don’t know.

best
Sidecar

 

[Ric Vice]

Ric

I’m a little confused about the Headway though- it seems the original EDB-2 is still available from Headway direct- when is the new version due out, and how’s it going to be different from the current one?

Or maybe a doubler 2? Even though I virtually never double, and it lacks a proper phase switch (the phase control on the doubler only affects the phase between the two preamp channels). But that’d be single-cable bliss. Yikes, I don’t know.

best
Sidecar

The new EDB-2 H.E. is available for pre sale orders now. They are supposed to ship at the end of March. If John Littler does what he did last time when the EDB-2 first arrived, the current stock will likely be discounted, but I have no conformation on

that happening.

 

[MrSidecar]

Quick Update.

The COVID-19-lockdown is being fazed out where I am, which means that normal rehearsal and gig activity is about to resume.
My first post-lockdown rehearsal yesterday was with an acoustic pop music trio that occasionally gets beefed up with vibes and electric guitar. Drums, guitar, bass is the core. Drummer is the most reasonably-playing guy you could wish for, dynamic but never too loud. Nadine went into a shoddy PA system with big speakers. Perfect sound, no feedback, what’s not to like?

Saturday, I’ll play a small private show with this band, and hopefully I’ll use The ...... EA Doubler 2 that is on its way to me. I took the plunge because really- two black boxes with their matching power supplies and all the wiring between them in addition to the amp and cabinet gave me nightmares imagining having to remember all that stuff when leaving the house- and something in me screams NO! if I have to use more than one power outlet, because it usually means I’ll have to take a 3-from-1 thingy with me. Or something so not-me like a “pedal board” without any proper pedals on. I just know that all that is too error-prone for my taste. So the Doubler gets a shot.

I’ll report.
Best
Sidecar

 

[Ric Vice]

Quick Update.

The COVID-19-lockdown is being fazed out where I am, which means that normal rehearsal and gig activity is about to resume.
My first post-lockdown rehearsal yesterday was with an acoustic pop music trio that occasionally gets beefed up with vibes and electric guitar. Drums, guitar, bass is the core. Drummer is the most reasonably-playing guy you could wish for, dynamic but never too loud. Nadine went into a shoddy PA system with big speakers. Perfect sound, no feedback, what’s not to like?

Saturday, I’ll play a small private show with this band, and hopefully I’ll use The ...... EA Doubler 2 that is on its way to me. I took the plunge because really- two black boxes with their matching power supplies and all the wiring between them in addition to the amp and cabinet gave me nightmares imagining having to remember all that stuff when leaving the house- and something in me screams NO! if I have to use more than one power outlet, because it usually means I’ll have to take a 3-from-1 thingy with me. Or something so not-me like a “pedal board” without any proper pedals on. I just know that all that is too error-prone for my taste. So the Doubler gets a shot.

I’ll report.
Best
Sidecar

Mr. Sidecar

Good choices all around. Just plug the Nadine into Channel One of the EA Doubler and your good to go. No muss no fuss. I have my first gig back (weather permitting) later this month. Through that 2x6 you have a very

High Fidelity back line system. The Walter Woods amps we both own, just aren't as flexible as the newer systems. Just listening to Chris Minh Doky's Transparency and New Nordic Jazz albums. Incredible, musical, with the

bass as a lead instrument on each of the tunes which feel more like folk songs or folk dances. Mini Doky is remarkable as a bassist and a composer. It's such a beautiful integrated approach to the bass in a trio.

 

[kerrycares]

I bit ...... it’s shipped and will be here Wednesday!

 

[MrSidecar]

And now, With the Doubler.

The amp didn’t arrive in time for the gig- which was fine because we played acoustically.
But I’ve had time to put Nadine/Doubler/MAS26 through a test in rehearsal situations.
I can see why most people don’t use mics that way- it’s not as straightforward as a pickup and certainly can go wrong. Notch filters are, for me, knobs with a considerable learning curve, and often, I’m tempted to think it’s better leaving them alone. But, carefully futzing with the notch filter, the EQ and the phase (yes, the doubler variable phase does something even though you’re only using one sound source- contrary to what the manual says, see below), one can get louder than ever necessary with a super-clean and very punchy MBOL sound. And without feedback. The punch of this combination allows for lower levels while still being perfectly audible, and all that is easier to achieve and cleaner/even more MBOL than with the old Woods. And all the “stuff” between amp and microphone is gone, so I’m happy.

a word on the variable phase:

the manual states it’s useful to correct the phase between two pickups/the two channels. And it even goes so far as to say it only works with both channels in use. I find that it has an effect similar to the traditional phase switch. But, as no knob turn ever can be as fast as flicking a switch, the effect is not as immediately noticeable, rather subtle at first. But it works wonders in (especially lower-pitched) feedback removal- for the high-pitched feedback the notch seems better.
However, I have not experienced any particular magic usefulness in anything between 0 and 180 degrees.The two outer extremes work best for me.

Best
Sidecar

 

[Ric Vice]

And now, With the Doubler.

I’ve had time to put Nadine/Doubler/MAS26 through a test in rehearsal situations.
I can see why most people don’t use mics that way- it’s not as straightforward as a pickup and certainly can go wrong. Notch filters are, for me, knobs with a considerable learning curve, and often, I’m tempted to think it’s better leaving them alone. But, carefully futzing with the notch filter, the EQ and the phase (yes, the doubler variable phase does something even though you’re only using one sound source- contrary to what the manual says, see below), one can get louder than ever necessary with a super-clean and very punchy MBOL sound. And without feedback. The punch of this combination allows for lower levels while still being perfectly audible, and all that is easier to achieve and cleaner/even more MBOL than with the old Woods. And all the “stuff” between amp and microphone is gone, so I’m happy.


Sidecar

The experience has been virtually the same for me. Notch filters aren't the easiest thing to use and the result of notching a particular frequency band can be detrimental if the notch frequency is two wide. Even at their narrowest

setting on the Grace Felix, you can feel like the notes at the frequency of the notch disappear. Just my take of course.

 

[Povl Carstensen]

Yes, ofcourse phase changes the relation of the amplified signal to the acoustic sound of the bass. I know others disagree, but my experience is simple. One phase gives the most bass, and most sense of connection between your playing and the sound that comes out. This is normally the nonreversed phase in my experience.
Perhaps the effect changes or lessens if you are far away from you speaker, but I am usually within 1 1/2 meters.
I have experienced the same effect even on EB, one phase seems most "right", most "connected" to what you are doing.

 

[MrSidecar]

After a direct comparison of the two amps, I’ll have to say I am forced to take back some of my doubler-enthusiasm from before. But that’s another thread... this is hard!

Best

 

[kerrycares]