Double Bass The Talent Code, and concepts related to it

[Chris Fitzgerald]

I read this book a few years back along with several others along the same lines, and I have to say that the concepts it contains have completely changed the way I practice for the better. Somehow knowing a little bit about what's actually going on inside the brain when we learn new skills has opened up a whole new world for me along many fronts. I've recently also read his more recent book entitled "The Little Book of Talent" and am currently reading The Power of Habit, both of which I find extremely useful tools in directing my musical practice in more positive directions.

If anyone else has experience with these books or books like them, please share your experiences. I'm finding that the applications of these concepts are making my practice across several spheres (i.e. - music (bass and piano), exercise/fitness, and martial arts) a whole lot more efficient and effective, and I'm looking to delve deeper into this area of thought and learn from others who may have experienced the same sorts of things.

 

[Huy Nguyen]

I've been fascinated with Chris Potter's playing for sometime. Sometimes it a little too much for me but I've been always impressed with the technical ability and creativity. There was a Youtube a while back I found that was pretty inspiring in this vein of efficiency at learning. CP said that he's not one of those Coltrane types - practicing for hours on end. He only practices a 2-3 hours a day. Lee Konitz says in his book (paraphrasing) that Chris Potter is someone that was never told that it was "supposed to be hard".

Since then I've been obsessed with finding more efficient ways of learning. A friend of mine was reading a book - something about enhancing cognitive skills. A suggestion I stole that he told me about was that you needed about a 5-10 minute break between learning two new topics. Works wonders for me. Scales for 10 minutes, break for 10 minutes, new tunes for 20 minutes, break for 10 (or more)... etc etc. Apparently the critical thing is to not think about what you just practiced during the break. I don't understand why it works but it seems very effective. Using this approach, I'm able to memorize new tunes within an hour of practicing, solos, walking, etc. etc, as long as the tune is not overly complicated.

On another front, Hal Galper recommended this book to his Facebook friends.
http://www.amazon.com/Primacy-The-Ear-Ran-Blake/dp/0557609127
I'm only into the first 30 pages but it seems to be really good and have effective listening practices. So far, he espouses a similar idea - that you should actively listen, but only in short spurts with 30 second breaks in between.

And finally, I think a decent amount sleep is hugely critical in allowing the brain to process through learning new techniques and sklls. No amount of practice can help with the brain to absorb new material in a deep level like that.

 

[Jeremy Darrow]

And finally, I think a decent amount sleep is hugely critical in allowing the brain to process through learning new techniques and sklls. No amount of practice can help with the brain to absorb new material in a deep level like that.

I think that sleep is a huge part of the equation, for me at least. I've found that I can only make real progress on one thing, like a shift or a short phrase; one isolated bit of playing, for about ten minutes. Then, I've gotten what I can out of that for the day. Any progress I make after that ten minutes isn't there the next day, not in an apparent way anyhow. But if I've gotten good sleep the night before, I can just about pick up where I left off on that little bit of music after those ten intense minutes.

Chris, these sound like fascinating books. Definitely something I'll check out.

 

[One Drop]

I've only heard of the concepts through the bits that filter into the popular press- I'll definitely order these books as I'm fascinated by the subject and this type of research. Thanks!

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Good stuff - I hope more people will keep it coming. Due to an unforseen circumstance recently, I discovered that I'll have to be teaching jazz piano again for a while starting in the fall. Since I'm about 15 years out from the time when I practiced or performed regularly, and since a couple of the students are fine young players, I have to take the practice aspect over the summer months very seriously.

The notion of "deep practice" - the state of mind/attention which TTC describes as most conducive to maximized learning potential - is something that resonates with previous periods of my musical and physical life where I made great progress in something or other without intentional methodology and/or knowledge of what was going on behind the scenes. The concepts of "ignition" and "master coaching" also fit right into every situation where this kind of progress has been made in my case.

What was missing for me then was any scientific knowledge of the biochemical mechanism in the brain that happens as we learn things. The whole concept of myelin insulation fascinates me, and somehow makes the process more concrete, which in turn makes the regimens I come up with easier to follow because I know that if i keep at it, I will see results. The myelin angle is also interesting for more personal reasons as I have a close family member and several friends with MS.

As far as the sleep angle, I'll have to look into that further. I'll definitely check out the Galper book recommendation, too.

 

[Huy Nguyen]

Oh yeah, I'll mention the thing about practicing something backwards again. I got it from this book years ago: http://www.amazon.com/books/dp/0609810057

The idea is to work on your short term memory. The exercise in the book was to memorize license plates backwards on other cars as your driving (or as a passenger). I took the same idea and applied it to music and found it did wonders for my memorization skills - at least subjectively. As I've described previously, I saw the same concept crop up with the language system Pimsleur - which is also effective in a certain way.

I'm also experimenting more with practicing away from the instrument and using visualization. This is huge in many sports, however it's quite different with music because it's not a vision - it's aural. Maybe it should be called auralization? The act of hearing a soundscape mentally and projecting how it changes in the future.

Lastly, I'm still big into the proprioception thing. So far, the practice of singing while playing yields immense rewards. To be able to walk while singing a melody, guide tone, harmony, etc etc is just tremendous in what you get in return. Singing while playing gives you that proprioceptive feedback because you can feel your upper body resonating against the notes being played by the bass. Singing a drone while doing scale work makes things crazy fast in terms of learning for me. It's almost like doing a meditative chant at times. I got the idea from a local teacher. Sing a drone while playing arco scales - really really good. On top of that, proprioceptive learning is extremely effective at self-correction.

I ordered the Talent Code and will be reading it over the next couple weeks - thanks.

 

[Huy Nguyen]

Here's a video trailer on Coyle's book for the rest of us.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dY7QNxXbziA

I need to dig deeper into the slow practice thing. That seems to be a recurring theme for me heard about from multiple sources, mostly notably in Lee Konitz's pseudo-autobiography.

 

[Jay Corwin]

I just started reading it myself. I'm always looking for more efficient ways to practice.

 

[Huy Nguyen]

I can't help posting - I love these topics.

I'm hooked on TTC - already through about the first 1/5 of the book on my lunch break. Well written and doesn't bog down too much in trying to explain how it works. Myelin is pretty simple. So far, the word "automaticity" stands out. Definitely describes what many of us (esp through ear training/practice) have been trying to achieve.

One comment: lately I've been hooking on writing my own compositions. TBH, I just know enough theory to play bass but not so much to compose or create reharms. I'm just writing simple (mostly diatonic) melodies over common jazz structures and now beginning to explore more complicated harmony. Anyways, ever since I've been writing tunes, my solo has been getting significantly better. There's a sense of automaticity when it comes to soloing now. I just think about what I want to say and it kinda "automatically" comes out.

To do the actual writing, I use MuseScore to create a lead sheet. The program allows me to instantly hear the notes I put down on staff and easily correct the pitch and/or timing to match it to what I want to hear. I welcome mistakes as they're easily corrected and I can keep adjusting it to fit what I hear. I'm usually doing this with a guitar in hand so I can play the next set of phrases or what was already written fairly easily.

So now having read some of TTC, I realize that the way I was doing composition was also a type of deep learning. Slow concentrated conception of melody with a lot of mistakes - and through corrections it gets better and better. I'm practicing the conception of melodies in a "deep learning" manner. So when it comes to solo in real time over a standard - voila, that automaticity to generate new ideas or manipulate ideas I just created is there.

Fascinating!

I'll have to post a recording of my playing and compositions sometime soon just so I say that it's not just talk.

EDIT: One thing I'd also like to point out. As a skier spending plenty of days on the slopes and take lessons on a regular basis I can say that good skiers tend to always be pushing their limits. They're not practicing rote movements - they're out there pushing themselves skiing on the edge of the limits and willing to fall and laugh at themselves when things don't come together. It's part of the game - if you're not falling, you're not skiing hard enough. Or as my instructor likes to say during lessons: "If it's not uncomfortable, you're not learning".

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

EDIT: One thing I'd also like to point out. As a skier spending plenty of days on the slopes and take lessons on a regular basis I can say that good skiers tend to always be pushing their limits. They're not practicing rote movements - they're out there pushing themselves skiing on the edge of the limits and willing to fall and laugh at themselves when things don't come together. It's part of the game - if you're not falling, you're not skiing hard enough. Or as my instructor likes to say during lessons: "If it's not uncomfortable, you're not learning".

Coyle points out both in TTC and TLBoT that the right zone to be in when practicing is called "the sweet spot", which is described as:

the “optimal gap between what you know and what you’re trying to do.”
(p. 19).
“Deep practice” is the art of increasing learning velocity by “struggling in certain targeted
ways
–
operating at the edges of your ability where you make mistakes ….

There are multiple ways to do this, from doing things you really are a beginner at extremely slow (i.e. - the "Meadowmout Way" from TTC) to just enough faster than you are comfortable with that it forces you to stay focused and correct your inevitable mistakes.

I've long been a proponent of what I call the "Bulkhead door" approach to viewing practice and performance: practice things you are trying to learn in the shed, being as methodical and dispassionate about it as possible. Then, when you leave the practice room, close the bulkhead door and lock it tight with the big wheel that seals it; at this point you can go to play, and just play with whatever you have absorbed. This is where your "Automaticity" concept comes in.

Good stuff!

 

[SteC]

This looks really interesting, must have a read. Good shout.

 

[Huy Nguyen]

I've long been a proponent of what I call the "Bulkhead door" approach to viewing practice and performance: practice things you are trying to learn in the shed, being as methodical and dispassionate about it as possible. Then, when you leave the practice room, close the bulkhead door and lock it tight with the big wheel that seals it; at this point you can go to play, and just play with whatever you have absorbed. This is where your "Automaticity" concept comes in.

Funny. Sometimes, both the pianist I play with and I like to also leave something behind in the bulkhead. On some tunes, we don't fully practice it all the way and intentionally leave something out. Something we don't practice completely or have done totally cold. It leaves us to search with our ears when we have to perform the tune in class or otherwise and gives it a sense of danger.

Kind of a safer approach to being forced to learn on the bandstand. Helps with learning on the spot.

 

[jhelsley]

While not music specific, John Medina's Book "Brain Rules" (I know, it sounds like a self-help book...) has some really interesting information about how our brain learns and processes stuff.
Also, "Moonwalking with Einstein" is an interesting look at extremes in memorization.

 

[BassMom88]

Also, "Moonwalking with Einstein" is an interesting look at extremes in memorization.

Here's a link to the free PDF download. I think there's several free Ebook options available for download out there too.

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Also not music specific, but I'm interested in adding Daniel Tammet's "Thinking in Numbers" to my reading list. He holds the record for memorizing Pi to over 22,000 decimal places. He is autistic and has synesthesia. My daughter has multiple forms of synesthesia (not to any extreme like Daniel) but it definitely seems to help her memory especially with transcribing and learning tunes quickly.

 

[Huy Nguyen]

Thanks for the pdf. I'll have to check that out.

I just strung one of my basses in 5ths tuning last night so I'm putting all of these theories based on myelin to the test. So far very interesting. After about 30 minutes I'm able to mangle my way through a blues. I'll have to slow things down even further.

The myelin thing also kinda explains how Pat Martino was able to rewire his brain so quickly following his stroke. Yes he had to start over, but the existing physiology had to re-arrange to work again.

 

[Treyzer]

At least for me, there is a huge difference between what I might think I know while in the shed and what I actually know that can be played on a bandstand. My practice has a number of parts and I may not get through all of it in one day. Typically, intonation exercises, 3 octave scales, 2 & 3 octave arpeggios, classical etudes (arco) I suck..., jazz heads that I know and that I'm learning, new tunes, solo transcriptions, sight reading and lots of listening.

It's been my experience that if I really know something, be it a head, a concept, an idea, a certain phrase or quote, I can play it on the stand. This might be because of a higher level of concentration, as well as the awareness that there are no do overs, King's X's or 2nd chances; What comes out, comes out, so you can't really fool yourself into thinking you have something in your ears and under your fingers when you don't.

 

[Treyzer]

I'm think I should have posed a question out of my ramblings above. Something to the effect of, Why does this happen this way? and /or is this anyone else's experience or just mine?

 

[Ed Fuqua]

I've been fascinated with Chris Potter's playing for sometime. Sometimes it a little too much for me but I've been always impressed with the technical ability and creativity. There was a Youtube a while back I found that was pretty inspiring in this vein of efficiency at learning. CP said that he's not one of those Coltrane types - practicing for hours on end. He only practices a 2-3 hours a day. Lee Konitz says in his book (paraphrasing) that Chris Potter is someone that was never told that it was "supposed to be hard".

The thing to remember about Chris Potter is, much like Kenny Werner, he's kind of a child prodigy. I was on a number of gigs with Chris when he lived in Columbia SC and was 14 and 15 years old. And it wasn't that he "played good for a 14 year old", he was playing at a level that was WAY above most of the other musicians in the area and at a level of the nationally know folks that had settled in the area. And not just on tenor; I got to hear him on alto and bari and, at an after hours session after a big band gig, on freaking PIANO.
Not to negate the hard work that I am sure he has put in throughout his life, but he has had a deep and immediate understanding of the language and where it lives on the instruments he plays from a VERY young age. As I'm sure DURRL can attest, Jamie thinks he's a reincarnation of Bird.

All to say, sometimes when folks like Chris and Kenny talk about music, it's kind of like fish talking about swimming in water. They were born with an innate sense of water and how to move through it and don't really understand why the rest of us don't just "know" these things the way they do.

 

[Jeff Kissell]

To me the true value of TB is this type of thread. This where the art happens and how it happens (not whether you use the same strings as Dave Holland).
The whole concept that somehow there is a shortcut to knowing is the crux. Knowing is the sum of everything you put in BUT the intention of that effort is the key. Time spent (be it 10,000 hours or whatever) is still a given, but in and of itself, has virtually nothing to do with it. I really appreciate having this resource (TB) to help me on the path and threads like this are what inspires me to keep striving to understand this language and how our instrument fits in it.
Thanks,
Jeff

 

[Huy Nguyen]

Ed, I'd highly rec you read the TTC book - it's fairly easy. Already I'm just almost halfway through after a coupla days. The book tries to explain how prodigies like Kenny and Chris got to where they are at that early age, and how they continue to develop. To put it simply, the talent had to start somewhere and that their environments nurtured them to work in a deep study manner while being constantly tested by playing gigs. Kenny's experience of studying with Madame Chaloff is an exact description of "deep practice" through a Master coach. I would not be surprised of Chris had something similar. Expressing the need to only practice 2 hours a day shows that he's gotten some sort of system down for him that works. I think the TTC ideas also dovetail well into the "Really Learning a Tune" concept too.

@Trey: it's not about shortcuts really or learning a device to circumvent a usual approach. The demand for the breadth of knowledge is still there. I think the point of the book is to find an efficient learning technique that can circumvent the usual belief of 10000 hours of practice to become a master. Something that accelerates the usual path. Instead of spending 10 hours learning one scale, can I do it in 2 or 3? or even 30 minutes? As Hal Galper likes to point out, rote practice doesn't work, or rather that it's too inefficient as a learning technique.

How to learn is the question, not what to learn. And of course, the learning is no use if you can't use it once the Bulkhead Door is closed.