Redeem, avoid? The mistake is a lesson not to be avoided. Enjoying doing things that you want to avoid later...perhaps you haven't really played music with other people who listen to you much. This is fine at home I suppose, but enjoying making mistakes is surely going to come through on the bandstand..
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Double Bass The Talent Code, and concepts related to it
- Thread starter Chris Fitzgerald
- Start date
Redeem, avoid? The mistake is a lesson not to be avoided. Enjoying doing things that you want to avoid later...perhaps you haven't really played music with other people who listen to you much. This is fine at home I suppose, but enjoying making mistakes is surely going to come through on the bandstand..
http://www.amazon.com/review/R1Z11W5B7M1QYX/ref=cm_cr_pr_viewpnt#R1Z11W5B7M1QYX
I agree more with the above review.
But I do look forward to the day when we can all be above average!
I agree more with the above review.
But I do look forward to the day when we can all be above average!
As an Amazon Associate, TalkBass may receive commissions from qualifying purchases made via links on this site.
I've got one waiting..you'll need to go into more depth to get it though. You probably won't want to do that.
It's been like a week or two since I've completed both books. I give them a 7/10 each. LBOT is really messy at delivery. The tips are good, but leave me wanting something more substantial. He should provide examples of how to apply said tips by combining them together in examples. Easy to read but the content doesn't get that deep.
From a practical standpoint, again, I think reiterating the point that you can control the creation of myelin is a non-starter. Anything that results in automaticity is where it's at. An action much be learned til the point where it becomes automatic so that it frees up the mind to think about something else. If it doesn't result in automaticity, it's not likely a good method, or worse, it reinforces bad habits. The focus should be more on automaticity, not myelin, combined with breeding self-confidence..
Also, I think it's worth pointing out that any trick, game, or technique is only good if it breeds self-confidence once the skill is grasped. I think that might be one thing Coyle doesn't really mention. Self-confidence can go a long way when it comes to performing, and getting a case of nerves does a good job at trashing ones ability, regardless of how much you've mastered it in the shed. And just because you perform often doesn't mean that you can't get stage fright.
Overall, the books have a good intent but there are lots of holes.
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Based on this long review (linked above), and the fact that no "self-help" book (musical or otherwise) has ever been much help (George Carlin once commented that if you're motivated enough to buy a motivation book, you don't need it.) I'm thinking I'll keep at it only own.
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Oops! I meant to link to this other really long review:http://www.amazon.com/review/R1DKTJ...e=UTF8&ASIN=055380684X&linkCode=&nodeID=&tag=
I'm a lot more interested in experimental approaches to analyzing how we learn. Coyle is mostly anecdotal. Robert Bjork at UCLA has published a lot that I find useful. I will add some links to his work, and some others that I find interesting. I would be interested in discussing, if any of you read them and want to discuss.
To summarize what I have come to believe from studying this, and experimenting with my own learning.
Here are the links:
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
http://www.salon.com/2012/10/27/whats_the_secret_to_learning_a_second_lanuage/
Link Removed
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
http://robinheyden.wordpress.com/20...bering-forgetting-and-desirable-difficulties/
http://gocognitive.net/interviews/robert-bjork-long-term-memory
http://gocognitive.net/interviews/desirable-difficulties-slowing-down-learning
http://www.fluentin3months.com/spaced-repetition/
http://www.jackkinsella.ie/2011/12/05/janki-method.html
http://www.supermemo.com/articles/20rules.htm
I'm a lot more interested in experimental approaches to analyzing how we learn. Coyle is mostly anecdotal. Robert Bjork at UCLA has published a lot that I find useful. I will add some links to his work, and some others that I find interesting. I would be interested in discussing, if any of you read them and want to discuss.
To summarize what I have come to believe from studying this, and experimenting with my own learning.
- The principles for building skills are the same as the principles for building knowledge.
- Break big things down into little things, and use a spaced repetition system like Anki to manage all of the little things you learn.
- Apply the little things you learn creatively, so you learn to coordinate them.
- Interact with people who are fluent, using the little things you learn.
- Think "relaxed and accurate" not "slow". You can practice slowly and incorrectly, but if you are relaxed and accurate, you can't be going too fast.
Here are the links:
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
http://www.salon.com/2012/10/27/whats_the_secret_to_learning_a_second_lanuage/
Link Removed
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
http://robinheyden.wordpress.com/20...bering-forgetting-and-desirable-difficulties/
http://gocognitive.net/interviews/robert-bjork-long-term-memory
http://gocognitive.net/interviews/desirable-difficulties-slowing-down-learning
http://www.fluentin3months.com/spaced-repetition/
http://www.jackkinsella.ie/2011/12/05/janki-method.html
http://www.supermemo.com/articles/20rules.htm
As an Amazon Associate, TalkBass may receive commissions from qualifying purchases made via links on this site.
Funny, I ordered the two books because of this thread, then when I read the actual reviews, I remembered why I went with "Talent Is Overated" by Geoff Colvin instead a few months ago (good book, by the way). I hope I won't be too disappointed.
And even though my post about it seems to have been ignored, I'll repeat my recommendation of The Musician's Way by Gerald Clickstein .
http://www.amazon.com/The-Musicians-Way-Practice-Performance/dp/0195343131
It is REALLY a great book and contains chapters on practicing and learning music that apply the concepts of deep/deliberate practice. Anyone who's interested in improving practicing should read it, IMO. I took a lot from it.
By the way, I think one difference between people is not neccessarily only what we'd call "musical talent". Some people seem to be "very good at practicing". They don't need inspiration from science/books to come up with clever ways of practicing stuff - they just intuitively do it "the right way".
And even though my post about it seems to have been ignored, I'll repeat my recommendation of The Musician's Way by Gerald Clickstein .
http://www.amazon.com/The-Musicians-Way-Practice-Performance/dp/0195343131
It is REALLY a great book and contains chapters on practicing and learning music that apply the concepts of deep/deliberate practice. Anyone who's interested in improving practicing should read it, IMO. I took a lot from it.
By the way, I think one difference between people is not neccessarily only what we'd call "musical talent". Some people seem to be "very good at practicing". They don't need inspiration from science/books to come up with clever ways of practicing stuff - they just intuitively do it "the right way".
As an Amazon Associate, TalkBass may receive commissions from qualifying purchases made via links on this site.
A wonderful book on practicing that I'd forgotten I had is "The Art of Practicing ~ A guide to making music from the heart" by: Madeline Bruser. Madeline is a classical pianist. The book gets into practicing on levels I hadn't considered before.
Here's a link about it: Invalid Link Removed. Just figured I'd throw this out there for consideration.
Here's a link about it: Invalid Link Removed. Just figured I'd throw this out there for consideration.
I read these practice books and it all just seems like a reiteration of what the old lady teaching the piano down the street said: perfect practice makes perfect. Then some one labels it "deliberate practice", and another calls it "deep practice". I am waiting for "profound practice" next. There are some small differences, but isn't this all stuff that most musicians know. I'm sure that there are people who just drill things over and over, but most thoughtful people realize that you need to break down tasks and focus on solving problems.
I think the area of practice that gets neglected in these books is skill maintenance. Learning something new is a finite task. Maintaining all you will ever learn is infinite, and much more daunting. I think it is the one step forward/two steps back feeling of learning new skills, only to forget old ones that demoralizes most musicians.
I think the area of practice that gets neglected in these books is skill maintenance. Learning something new is a finite task. Maintaining all you will ever learn is infinite, and much more daunting. I think it is the one step forward/two steps back feeling of learning new skills, only to forget old ones that demoralizes most musicians.
Yeah, most thoughtful people. But to be honest, I don't think that a lot of people a very thoughtful.
I don't think it's so much that people (a lot, a few, most... whatever) aren't very thoughtful, I think it's just a matter of no two people think in quite the same way. No one way works for everyone, and therefore there is no wrong way (unless it hurts you somehow).
That's my .02.
I dont' think it hurts to have bought the books - I'd still read them. I think the point is that you have to explore and be creative about how you practice, and find the best games and things to get you doing deep practice in a multitude of ways. Good teachers can help with that but I think it's quite possible to find your own way of inventing your own learning devices.
Coyles books are still useful if you haven't started down that road in giving a certain perspective of how and why those games/devices should be played. Just as the music you play should be creative, I think so should your path of learning. Throw away what doesn't work and find something else that does. Isn't there a quote out there that's something like "The best teachers show you how to teach yourself"? In the end, it's mostly self learning and the teacher is just a "guru" in the truest sense - "guru" defined as merely someone who dispels darkness.
Coyles books are still useful if you haven't started down that road in giving a certain perspective of how and why those games/devices should be played. Just as the music you play should be creative, I think so should your path of learning. Throw away what doesn't work and find something else that does. Isn't there a quote out there that's something like "The best teachers show you how to teach yourself"? In the end, it's mostly self learning and the teacher is just a "guru" in the truest sense - "guru" defined as merely someone who dispels darkness.
We all learn the same; we just have different excuses.
Anyone read any of those articles?
I disagree. The wrong way is anything that reinforces mistakes and doesn't breed self-confidence about your playing.
If you practice something in a way that doesn't make you feel stronger about your playing and getting you closer to where you want to be, you're doing it wrong.
I think you must be confusing the responsibilities of differing professional skill sets.
I don't believe it is demoralizing for a musician to blow a part because they haven't practiced a particular technique in a while..it happens all the time and at all levels of playing skill.
OTH, if a medical professional gets confused and makes a life threatening mistake because they forgot what they were doing for a few milliseconds, yes the results would be demoralizing.
I've been interested in these types of concepts since learning of Geoff Colvin, who does similar research, earlier this year. I've tried on a couple of occasions to simplify/maximize my practice time, but life has a way of interrupting. The plans I've come up with have quickly gone to pot. What books/authors are considered the best. I'm currently reading a book on how to improve memory.
