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Double Bass The Talent Code, and concepts related to it

#61
Mr PC--I was thinking more along the lines of a jazz musician who wants to memorize a repertoire of songs, and ends up with a bunch that he used to know/sort of knows. But it goes with discreet skills too.

JD--The important thing is to think in terms of long term efficiency. Simple isn't always efficient. It is simple to make a list of diatomic 7 chords and go through the whole list on a fixed schedule. But you will often find that only.half actually need that amount of practice. That's simple, but not efficient.
 
#62
Zojo said:
We all learn the same; we just have different excuses.:hiding:

Anyone read any of those articles?
Click to expand...

Not even remotely true. There are many different learning "styles" (insert your chosen euphemism chose here). In consideration that you may have been joking... nah, nevermind. If it was a joke, it should have been funny.

*EDIT: In case you were curious, or thought I was pulling your leg....

Have a look for yourself:

Link Removed

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

http://www4.ncsu.edu/unity/lockers/users/f/felder/public/Learning_Styles.html

There are many more if you find these insufficient for some reason.
 
#63
hdiddy said:
I disagree. The wrong way is anything that reinforces mistakes and doesn't breed self-confidence about your playing.

If you practice something in a way that doesn't make you feel stronger about your playing and getting you closer to where you want to be, you're doing it wrong.
Click to expand...

Yes, that would be why I wrote:
"(unless it hurts you somehow)."

Sorry you missed that.
 
#64
ProgRocker said:
Not even remotely true. There are many different learning "styles" (insert your chosen euphemism chose here). In consideration that you may have been joking... nah, nevermind. If it was a joke, it should have been funny.

*EDIT: In case you were curious, or thought I was pulling your leg....

Have a look for yourself:

Link Removed

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

http://www4.ncsu.edu/unity/lockers/users/f/felder/public/Learning_Styles.html

There are many more if you find these insufficient for some reason.
Click to expand...

Ah, Google...

Certainly people are more alike in how they learn than different. We all have to actually play the bass to learn to play the bass, regardless of our learning style.

And yes, it was a joke.
 
#65
I'm about 3/4s through the Talent Code and I'm prodded to say that I disagree with the criticism of the book thus far. Granted, I'm on page 190 of 24x and I might be missing some, but so far, I have not found the book to be redundant, which I agree is very prevalent in a lot of self-help books.
I also dismiss the criticism that it is not prescriptive because the author is a journalist, not a scientist. He NOTED several camps of unusual learning and reported back. It's not his job to conclude HOW those camps were so successful - that's for scientists to study and describe.
Finally, I've already found the book very helpful to focusing my practice, many tips I had already stumbled upon, but still, it helps to have it distilled as much as the author has. IMHO, I think the criticism of the book is hyper-critical, and I thank Chris for having started the thread.
 
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#66
Zojo said:
Ah, Google...

Certainly people are more alike in how they learn than different. We all have to actually play the bass to learn to play the bass, regardless of our learning style.

And yes, it was a joke.
Click to expand...

Bing actually. Sorry, as someone who's struggled with learning disabilities all my life, I don't take the subject lightly. Physical learning (muscle memory) like learning how to play an instrument or riding a bike, is something people do similarly.

But, when it comes to the cerebral aspects of learning bass (for instance), how one processes that information varies greatly. I've taken (and continue to get) enough grief over learning differently than most people over the years to not find such humor funny.
 
#67
One thing that I'm still curious about is the statement about there being "no such thing as muscle memory". Obviously, since muscles don't have brains, we all knew that was technically true; but anybody who's ever learned to play an instrument or a sport or a martial art knows that there's a kind of physical micro calibration that must be maintained to keep that skill viable, even after a few days of not actively using that skill. The longer the interval, the longer the re-calibration. Elite performers and athletes have incredibly detailed rituals for maintaining their skill sets from day to day to perform at the highest level. It would be interesting to learn more about the biomechanics going on there.
 
#68
Chris Fitzgerald said:
One thing that I'm still curious about is the statement about there being "no such thing as muscle memory". Obviously, since muscles don't have brains, we all knew that was technically true; but anybody who's ever learned to play an instrument or a sport or a martial art knows that there's a kind of physical micro calibration that must be maintained to keep that skill viable, even after a few days of not actively using that skill. The longer the interval, the longer the re-calibration. Elite performers and athletes have incredibly detailed rituals for maintaining their skill sets from day to day to perform at the highest level. It would be interesting to learn more about the biomechanics going on there.
Click to expand...

Hey Guys,

Late to the party here. I read books like this and consider them research when it comes to being a full-time teacher. I use small parts of each one I read in my classroom practices.

Chris- I think you should read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_multiple_intelligences

Also, this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/This_Is_Your_Brain_On_Music

I will read TTC at some point in the near future. I have taught thousands of children at this point in my career. There are most definitely multiple intelligence's and you see them most often in younger children.

Interesting discussion. I will check in regularly.

Best,
BG
 
#70
ProgRocker said:
Bing actually. Sorry, as someone who's struggled with learning disabilities all my life, I don't take the subject lightly. Physical learning (muscle memory) like learning how to play an instrument or riding a bike, is something people do similarly.

But, when it comes to the cerebral aspects of learning bass (for instance), how one processes that information varies greatly. I've taken (and continue to get) enough grief over learning differently than most people over the years to not find such humor funny.
Click to expand...

I understand that the world can be cruel about our differences. But as someone with my own learning difficulties, and a teacher of the learning disabled, I don't see any point in being dour about our struggles. For a lot of people the anxiety they feel about their disability is more crippling than the disability, so I try to keep it light. The point of my joke was that we ALL struggle, and make excuses--not to make fun of the learning disabled.

Don't take educational research too seriously. A lot of it is poorly done. Just because you have a preferred modality doesn't mean that that is the only way you can or should learn. One can improve a modality by using it, and people learn best when multiple modalities are engaged.

____________


Physical skills have the same decay patterns as other memories. I have forgotten both scale patterns and phone numbers that I once "knew". While some memories are stickier than others, if you are not forgetting a scale pattern, it is probably because you are using it in your playing.

It's all about managing reviews.
 
#71
This vid is worth reposting to this thread:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_7DgCrziI8

Chris Fitzgerald said:
One thing that I'm still curious about is the statement about there being "no such thing as muscle memory". Obviously, since muscles don't have brains, we all knew that was technically true; but anybody who's ever learned to play an instrument or a sport or a martial art knows that there's a kind of physical micro calibration that must be maintained to keep that skill viable, even after a few days of not actively using that skill. The longer the interval, the longer the re-calibration. Elite performers and athletes have incredibly detailed rituals for maintaining their skill sets from day to day to perform at the highest level. It would be interesting to learn more about the biomechanics going on there.
Click to expand...
I'm guessing that the bulk of the movements is generally there but the ability to modulate them and move in a refined way starts to degrade. In other instances, some skills are ingrained so much that it's going to be very very hard to shake. For instance, I can play Maple Leaf rag the same way I did when I was 16 - even after not playing piano for over a year. It just takes a little nudging for the synapses to refire. For me, it's gone beyond muscle memory. I feel like it's burned into my psyche. I learned it to the point where automaticity took over a long time ago. The bad part is that all of the mistakes associated with my rendition are still there - and they're sometimes kinda severe and very very hard to undo (I've tried in the past). It's partly why I dropped piano altogether just to get a fresh start.

OTOH, the ability to finger chords are still there (so long as I know what keys that need to be hit). The motor skills for that are generally sharp for basic chords - it takes no brushing up for me to execute them, ergo it's beyond "muscle memory". Where I'm slow now is knowing which keys to hit to get a jazz voicing, and getting accustomed to hearing those soound.

So IMO, it depends on the activity. In martial arts, you're often learning a whole repetoire of moves, and the moves change from night to night. It's not like when I way playing piano in high school. The same song, several times a day, every day for a month. I can't imagine the automaticity that classical players get because they're doing it for hours on end every single day. You don't get the same amount of reps. In MA, if you were to do that, you'd prob end up being that 10,000 kicks guy that someone like Bruce Lee would fear.

So methinks, yeah there's no muscle memory. It just depends on how deeply the skill is learnt.

On the subject of iding a bike: once you understand the feel of how centrifugal force works with two wheels, you won't forget it. The sensation is unique. IMO, riding a bike is more about sensing and feeling than doing. Pedaling is easy compare to understanding how to balance a moving bike. I consider it as a different skill and more of an experience.


TL;DR version: Maybe it's just quicker an easier to say that there are varying degrees of automaticity. Things are either automatic or they're not. And if they're not, some brushing up is needed so get it back to where it's closer to being automatic. And that things are truly automatic when it can't be forgotten, or need brushing up.
 
#74
I don't think you can separate playing music as just motor memory or long vs short term. Motor memory is truly where you're doing something like eating or walking. Music is another animal that uses your whole psyche. I haven't read Oliver Sacks research, but I think that's partly what he's getting at. The entire brain fires, even if you're just sitting there and listening intently. There's something about music that causes the brain to become very active like no other activity.

When I play old classical pieces - I sing the sounds I want to play in my head. It's not like I can shut that sound out of my mind and the hands just do what they need to do. If I don't sing the melody or the part I'm playing, it doesn't work. It's not that simple.
 
#76
Heifetzbass said:
Hey Guys,

Late to the party here. I read books like this and consider them research when it comes to being a full-time teacher. I use small parts of each one I read in my classroom practices.

Chris- I think you should read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_multiple_intelligences
Click to expand...

Glanced over it, but will look into it further.

Also, this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/This_Is_Your_Brain_On_Music
Click to expand...

This one, I *definitely* need to read. Sounds like just the thing for this thread. Thanks!

hdiddy said:
This vid is worth reposting to this thread:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_7DgCrziI8
Click to expand...

I love that video. HEARING LOUD is a concept I thoroughly believe in, and I use this in teaching all the time.

I'm guessing that the bulk of the movements is generally there but the ability to modulate them and move in a refined way starts to degrade.
Click to expand...

"In a refined way" is what I was talking about earlier. I quit playing guitar over 20 years ago. I can still pick one up and play correct notes and rhythms, but my intimate feel for/connection to the instrument is long gone.

In other instances, some skills are ingrained so much that it's going to be very very hard to shake. For instance, I can play Maple Leaf rag the same way I did when I was 16 - even after not playing piano for over a year. It just takes a little nudging for the synapses to refire. For me, it's gone beyond muscle memory. I feel like it's burned into my psyche. I learned it to the point where automaticity took over a long time ago. The bad part is that all of the mistakes associated with my rendition are still there - and they're sometimes kinda severe and very very hard to undo (I've tried in the past). It's partly why I dropped piano altogether just to get a fresh start.

OTOH, the ability to finger chords are still there (so long as I know what keys that need to be hit). The motor skills for that are generally sharp for basic chords - it takes no brushing up for me to execute them, ergo it's beyond "muscle memory". Where I'm slow now is knowing which keys to hit to get a jazz voicing, and getting accustomed to hearing those soound.

So IMO, it depends on the activity. In martial arts, you're often learning a whole repetoire of moves, and the moves change from night to night. It's not like when I way playing piano in high school. The same song, several times a day, every day for a month. I can't imagine the automaticity that classical players get because they're doing it for hours on end every single day. You don't get the same amount of reps. In MA, if you were to do that, you'd prob end up being that 10,000 kicks guy that someone like Bruce Lee would fear.

So methinks, yeah there's no muscle memory. It just depends on how deeply the skill is learnt.
Click to expand...

As I mentioned earlier, a lot of what brought this thread on is the fact that I'll be teaching piano again this fall after a 15 year hiatus. What's funny is that I'm a much better musician now than i was then, but a much, MUCH worse pianist. It may be that there's no muscle memory, but that refined connection to the activity is what's missing, and I need a lot of shed time to rebuild that. I think of Ray Allen shooting hundreds of jump shots before every game, and I think that's a pretty good representation of maintaining a skill set in a kinesthetic way. At some point, it's about honing the *feel* of the activity to where not just automaticity, but what I will call "nano-automaticity" is tuned in.

Every year i go on vacation for about 10 days straight, during which time I do zero music and don't touch an instrument. When I come back, all of the sounds are still in my head and still plenty loud, but my feel for the instrument is covered with rust and clumsy. other people may not notice, but to me during this time I feel like I'm walking around with musical ankle weights on - slow and clumsy. Not sure if that's a neurological or muscular phenomenon happening there, or a little of both, but it does beg the question.

While I certainly will always remember how to play a major scale, there's a hell of a difference between playing one in the general sense and playing one in the refined sense. it's that refinement that I'm curious about, and that goes beyond simple memory of "can I do it"; it's more along the lines of wondering what the difference is between doing it at the 'I can play the notes and rhythms" level versus "I can make it sound supremely controlled, relaxed, and beautiful/make it sing" level.
 
#78
I'm kind of an odd duck. I learned back in my piano playing youth that if I practice a too too much, things actually get worse for me. The more I play a piece, the more mistakes, frustration, etc. etc. Diminishing returns. I play better after taking breaks. It's not likely that I'm one of those 8-hours-in-the-shed-daily types. Things get better when I come back to them the next day. So when I practice for a long time, I stop when things get repetitive and go do something else not related to music for a short while. Allows things to reset in a way.

Maybe something about allowing the mind to rest and digest things seems to be very important to me.
 
#80
hdiddy said:
I don't think you can separate playing music as just motor memory or long vs short term. Motor memory is truly where you're doing something like eating or walking. Music is another animal that uses your whole psyche.
Click to expand...

The physical aspect of playing is. The mechanical part of playing a scale, line, arpeggio, etc has to be mastered before your psyche can be engaged, you have to get past the physical part of learning to play. To get it under your fingers, as it were.

For what it's worth, I never said this was the "only" aspect of playing music.

hdiddy said:
I haven't read Oliver Sacks research, but I think that's partly what he's getting at. The entire brain fires, even if you're just sitting there and listening intently. There's something about music that causes the brain to become very active like no other activity.
Click to expand...

I haven't read it either. The brain separates complex tasks like playing music down into its core values and processes each part differently.

hdiddy said:
When I play old classical pieces - I sing the sounds I want to play in my head. It's not like I can shut that sound out of my mind and the hands just do what they need to do. If I don't sing the melody or the part I'm playing, it doesn't work. It's not that simple.
Click to expand...

Not at all what I'm trying to say. The different parts of the brain that are involved work in concert (forgive the pun) with each other to achieve the desired result. I don't recall saying it was simple. I've been trying to address the physical aspect of playing individually, as you would anything you want to study more closely.

I'm not saying the hands work independently of the brain. Even the definition of Muscle Memory doesn't imply that.
 

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