The Un-Official Sadowsky SA200 Thread...

[Wasnex]

OK, ya cornballs. Is anyone using a rack bag or a relatively lighter rack case to house the SA-200? As I posted in the Sadowsky thread, I snagged this beautiful amp recently. I'm not looking to get a heavyweight shockmount case. Even if/when things return to normal, I'm not going to be gigging heavily or tossing the amp in the back of a truck, so I'd like to keep the weight of the bag or case to about 10-12 pounds or less. I do want to put it in *something*, though.

Any general thoughts on Gator vs. SKB are also appreciated, as they seem to offer most of the options out there.

Both of mine are in older 3 ru SKB cases. One is the original style case in this style

and the other is a shallow roto rack that looks like this:

There rear opening on the roto rack obscures the speaker jacks. When I received the amp some of the material was clipped away, but not enough. I took the amp out and clipped away some more material but it is still challenging to get the jacks in and out, and I have to used certain cables that will fit.

IMHO, the case in post #617 would work well for local gigging. Definitely a no go for truck pack.

The shallow depth will make it even easier to lift and move the amp. I believe its about the same size as the above roto rack but it does not have the problem with the small opening in the back of the rack.

One other minor quibble. It's pretty hard to get the amp in and out of a 3 ru without scratching up the top or bottom panel of the amp.

I also have several Gator racks for my PA gear and IMHO the quality is pretty much equal. I bought Gator for the PA gear because I found a cheap L rack for my mixer years ago at the local Mars Music.

 

[Passinwind]

Both of mine are in older 3 ru SKB cases. One is the original style case in this style
View attachment 3847040
and the other is a shallow roto rack that looks like this:
View attachment 3847033
There rear opening on the roto rack obscures the speaker jacks. When I received the amp some of the material was clipped away, but not enough. I took the amp out and clipped away some more material but it is still challenging to get the jacks in and out, and I have to used certain cables that will fit.

IMHO, the case in post #617 would work well for local gigging. Definitely a no go for truck pack.

The shallow depth will make it even easier to lift and move the amp. I believe its about the same size as the above roto rack but it does not have the problem with the small opening in the back of the rack.

One other minor quibble. It's pretty hard to get the amp in and out of a 3 ru without scratching up the top or bottom panel of the amp.

I also have several Gator racks for my PA gear and IMHO the quality is pretty much equal. I bought Gator for the PA gear because I found a cheap L rack for my mixer years ago at the local Mars Music.

The newer one is a little deeper than the ones with the goofy trap door back. I have one of each and it's just a nicer piece all the way around IMO. The new one has back rails too, but I'm not sure how one might leverage that with this amp.

 

[Wasnex]

Both of mine are in older 3 ru SKB cases.

This This not accurate. Per the manual, the SA200 requires 4 rack spaces!

Sorry for the misinformation .

 

[Wasnex]

Done deal! Flipped the black switch at lower left over to 115V, closed up, plugged in and sounds great. Thanks a lot @Wasnex.

I was just looking at your circuit board a noticed it looks a bit different than the image in post #601. Is this a MkII amp? I believe the MkIIs have one toroidal transformer and one regular transformer. Both transformers are toroidal in the MkI.

 

[R&B]

I was just looking at your circuit board a noticed it looks a bit different than the image in post #601. Is this a MkII amp? I believe the MkIIs have one toroidal transformer and one regular transformer. Both transformers are toroidal in the MkI.

View attachment 3847657 View attachment 3847658

Yes, my serial number is within the second 100 units. I haven't opened the top cover. Peeking in, I noted that there are two different transformers.

 

[John D Harris]

Toroidals were the schizz...until they weren't.

 

[toniwonkanobi]

You guys think it would be heresy to pair this amp with one of Jim's neo-loaded cabinets like the NXT/NXV210? (Or does this amp beg for a more traditional ceramic cabinet like the REF210)?

 

[tombowlus]

You guys think it would be heresy to pair this amp with one of Jim's neo-loaded cabinets like the NXT/NXV210? (Or does this amp beg for a more traditional ceramic cabinet like the REF210)?

Absolutely not. Give it a go!

 

[Admiral Akbar]

My Sadowsky Rig last summer:

 

[toniwonkanobi]

Absolutely not. Give it a go!

Hey Tom! Have you heard the SA200 in a live setting with the NXT/NXV cabs yet? I just don't want to be missing some special sauce mojo snake oil by not pairing with the ceramic REF210.

 

[tombowlus]

Hey Tom! Have you heard the SA200 in a live setting with the NXT/NXV cabs yet? I just don't want to be missing some special sauce mojo snake oil by not pairing with the ceramic REF210.

No, I have not. In fact, I do not have any of the NXT or NXV cabs, but I have spoken to Jim many times in the past about tube amps and what cabs do/don't pair up well with them. In addition, I have used a wide variety of Jim's cabs with a wide variety of tube amps, so I believe him when he says that any of his cabs could be used with tube amps. That being said, I have experienced ported cabs from other brands which did not play nicely with tube power (over excursion being the most common issue). I also know that Jim designed the Sadowsky brand cabs to use stiffer "spiders" in the drivers to better handle the higher excursion from a tube head.

So, would I make the NXT/NXV cabs my first choice with my SA200? No. Do I prefer sealed cabs to ported cabs with tube amps? Often, but not always. Do I prefer the Sadowsky branded cabs to other ported Bergantino cabs with the SA200? Yes. Do I think that the older HS series cabs are the next best ported Bergantino-made cabs for the SA200? Yes. Do I think that the NXT/NXV cabs will likely fair quite well, and about as good as the Ref series cabs, with tube power? Yes. Have I tested this hypothesis personally? No.

Much of this comes down to personal preference (tonally) and gigging/volume needs. To be clear, I probably would not recommend slamming the SA200 for all it's worth with boosted low end into any (non-Sadowsky brand) ported cab.

 

[toniwonkanobi]

No, I have not. In fact, I do not have any of the NXT or NXV cabs, but I have spoken to Jim many times in the past about tube amps and what cabs do/don't pair up well with them. In addition, I have used a wide variety of Jim's cabs with a wide variety of tube amps, so I believe him when he says that any of his cabs could be used with tube amps. That being said, I have experienced ported cabs from other brands which did not play nicely with tube power (over excursion being the most common issue). I also know that Jim designed the Sadowsky brand cabs to use stiffer "spiders" in the drivers to better handle the higher excursion from a tube head.

So, would I make the NXT/NXV cabs my first choice with my SA200? No. Do I prefer sealed cabs to ported cabs with tube amps? Often, but not always. Do I prefer the Sadowsky branded cabs to other ported Bergantino cabs with the SA200? Yes. Do I think that the older HS series cabs are the next best ported Bergantino-made cabs for the SA200? Yes. Do I think that the NXT/NXV cabs will likely fair quite well, and about as good as the Ref series cabs, with tube power? Yes. Have I tested this hypothesis personally? No.

Much of this comes down to personal preference (tonally) and gigging/volume needs. To be clear, I probably would not recommend slamming the SA200 for all it's worth with boosted low end into any (non-Sadowsky brand) ported cab.

Makes sense Tom. (Wouldn't the REF210 be basically the same as the HS210, except for tweeter and enclosure covering? Or were the HS drivers technically different from the later HD/REF cabinets?)

 

[tombowlus]

Makes sense Tom. (Wouldn't the REF210 be basically the same as the HS210, except for tweeter and enclosure covering? Or were the HS drivers technically different from the later HD/REF cabinets?)

I believe they are different drivers. I do own both an HS210 and a Ref210, though, so I may be able to do that A/B comparison (eventually...).

 

[Jim Bergantino]

Maybe I can add some useful information here. To clarify something Tom mentioned above regarding designing the suspension or spiders of the Sadwosky drivers to accommodate the higher excursion of tube amps, it was actually to offset the higher output impedance, or lower damping of tube amps so that the bass doesn't over power the rest of the frequency range. The damping of an amp/speaker system can be compared to that of a car suspension. There's a spectrum going from tight (sport car suspension) to a warmer, luxury car suspension. Then there's the improper tuning which is like a suspension with broken shocks which is the car bouncing down the road uncontrollably after hitting a bump. Where the problem lies with most of the ported cabs that Tom mentioned above, is the designer didn't tune their ported cabs properly. When I designed for a company who is to remain nameless back in 2000, I believe they mentioned at one point on their website that they didn't recommend their cabs with tube amps. After receiving several of their cabs to evaluate and redesign, it was clearly evident why. This particular company didn't know how to properly tune their cabinets and the result was an underdamped system where the cone was over excurting resulting in a muddy bass and midrange response and compromised speaker cones from the excessive excursion. Because of the much higher damping of solid state amps, less competent designers can get away with a less than ideal tuning without any damage to the speakers themselves, but it still compromises the midrange response regardless.

As for the Ref 10" woofers vs. the HS woofers, they're the exact same woofer less the cone. So the difference between the two is solely tonal and not performance wise, as they share the same motor design.

Hope this helps!

 

[tombowlus]

Maybe I can add some useful information here. To clarify something Tom mentioned above regarding designing the suspension or spiders of the Sadwosky drivers to accommodate the higher excursion of tube amps, it was actually to offset the higher output impedance, or lower damping of tube amps so that the bass doesn't over power the rest of the frequency range. The damping of an amp/speaker system can be compared to that of a car suspension. There's a spectrum going from tight (sport car suspension) to a warmer, luxury car suspension. Then there's the improper tuning which is like a suspension with broken shocks which is the car bouncing down the road uncontrollably after hitting a bump. Where the problem lies with most of the ported cabs that Tom mentioned above, is the designer didn't tune their ported cabs properly, and if I may add, probably doesn't know how to tune a ported cab. When I designed for a company who is to remain nameless back in 2000, I believe they mentioned at one point on their website that they didn't recommend their cabs with tube amps. After receiving several of their cabs to evaluate and redesign, it was clearly evident why. This particular company didn't know how to properly tune their cabinets and the result was an underdamped system where the cone was over excurting resulting in muddy bass and compromised speaker cones due to over excursion. Because of the much higher damping of solid state amps, less competent designers can get away with a less than ideal tuning without any damage to the speakers themselves, but it still compromises the midrange response regardless.

As for the Ref 10" woofers vs. the HS woofers, they're the exact same woofer less the cone. So the difference between the two is solely tonal and not performance wise, as they share the same motor design.

Hope this helps!

Thanks for the clarification, Jim! What I observed as "over excursion" in other brands is probably a result of the lower damping factor, as you describe.

 

[Jim Bergantino]

Thanks for the clarification, Jim! What I observed as "over excursion" in other brands is probably a result of the lower damping factor, as you describe.

Hey Tom. Your response was actually very accurate but it is easy to interchange the actual cause of over excursion. In reference to the SA200, or most tube amps for that matter, it's usually the result of the relationship of the amps output damping and the speaker's damping or tuning. In fact, this is one of the reasons sealed cabs work so well with tube amps. It's very difficult if not impossible to design a sealed cab that would suffer from over excursion due to under damping with tube or any amps due to the very nature of the design. It's very easy, however, to go the other direction and design an under damped, sealed cab which would sound very anemic with any amp. Driver choice is very important in the design of any speaker system based on your cab choice, sealed or ported. And sometimes over excursion can just be the result of excessive power being applied to even a properly designed speaker system by exceeding its mechanical limits. The fact is, both scenarios can cause over excursion, but the improperly tuned cab will limit your performance in terms of total output capability as well as bass and midrange quality even at much lower volume levels

 

[toniwonkanobi]

So, moral of the story, with the SA200 or other similar tube amp, why lug around the extra weight with the REF versions?

 

[Jim Bergantino]

And just one final thought regarding the relationship of a tube amps higher output impedance as it pertains to speakers in general. Given this higher output impedance that is inherent in the majority of tube amp designs, the impedance of the speaker will also play a role in the final response of the amp/speaker system. This is another major reason tube amps tend to sound warmer. Just look where the impedance peak(s) reside in a speakers impedance curve and know there can be 3db or more relative output in these regions due to the higher output impedance of tube amps. This is another reason why sealed cabs tend to sound more balanced and less boomy with tube amps than their ported counterparts. The ported cabs tend to have an addition 3db of output in this region already due to the port which can make an additional 3db of output due to the tube amps output impedance either make it sound warmer and fatter, or in some cases too boomy. And much of this can depend on the design and tuning of the ported cab as discussed above.

 

[tombowlus]

Jim, thanks so much for sharing! While you are here, any thoughts on the NXT/NXV's vs Ref's when paired up with tube power? Thanks.

 

[Jim Bergantino]

Jim, thanks so much for sharing! While you are here, any thoughts on the NXT/NXV's vs Ref's when paired up with tube power? Thanks.

To be honest Tom, we haven't tested the new cabs on any all tube amps, but given your experiences with the Ref or HD series with a tube amp, I would expect the new NXT and NXV series to perform quite similarly or at the very least much closer to the HDs and Reference cabs than the HDN cabs if that helps at all. All of our series are designed to the same engineering principles and standards I believe in. But as you know all speakers and amps do have some differentiating characteristics and qualities that may make one more desirable than the other based on tonal preference and associated gear. I like to think there's no bad answer, just different flavors to choose from.