The Vinyl Comeback Is Stalling?

[JazznFunk]

The issue about the sound is always about how well it's recorded, mixed and mastered. I have plenty of music on both LP and CD where I like the vinyl much better but it's all about the mixing and mastering. The engineers in the 1960s had different ideas of what sounded good than the enginners of the 21st century.

And - newer 'remasters' are not ALWAYS better than the prior 'analog to digital' masters either. I have several examples of albums where I own the 1st or 2nd gen CD versions of albums I also own on vinyl, AND the 'newly remastered!' versions from the past decade or so that came out. The 'newly remastered' versions are unlistenable. Overly compressed, tinny sounding, too in your face. The first-gen transfers sound much closer to vinyl in terms of EQ/compression and wider dynamic range. 'Remastered' isn't always superior to the original if the remastering engineer loses sight of what the album truly sounded like to begin with.

 

[JazznFunk]

Mastering for vinyl and mastering for CD are pretty different. CDs don't have a frequency response baked in, while vinyl as a medium has muffled high frequencies.

A lot of people in the 80s said CDs sounded thin, but it wasn't the CDs - it was that record companies either didn't remaster appropriately for the format or the engineers were still settling into a new paradigm.

That's why CDs don't sound thin anymore.

This is an interesting discussion overall. It looks like sales are down across the board and vinyl is holding up relatively well.

I had the pleasure once of chatting with Joe Gastwirt, who was a mastering engineer with Columbia Records and others back in the day. During our conversation I mentioned that I really enjoyed the work he did on the first CD version of Chicago Transit Authority, which I purchased in the early 90s. He appreciated the kind words but admitted that they still didn't really know what they were doing 100% with analog to digital (CD) conversions and remasters back then, but he tried to make it sound as true to the original tapes and analog masters in every way possible with the tools they had, while taking advantage of the clarity that CD gave them. Not once did he mention anything about maxxing anything out to hype things up unnecessarily to take advantage of the much wider dynamic range of the CD medium. Personally, to my ears, I think he succeeded. I have the 'newly remastered' version of the same record from 10 years or so ago and it's awful. Nothing like the vinyl, or the original CD version. Dynamics are becoming a lost art, but vinyl is a format that demands them.

 

[bass12]

I’m writing this as my 9 year old is in the other room listening to a Laney Jones album on his new mid-level turntable he asked for and received at Christmas. Sounds really good to him and me. This is an extremely pleasant experience for me, contrasted with what he was doing previously: “alexa play (whatever random song he’s into).”

The vinyl album comeback has never been about audio quality, it’s about connection and experience. Taking away the listener’s ability to easily skip tracks and forcing them to appreciate the album as a whole, artwork included. Bringing back the album as a cohesive work of art, limiting filler and holding attention. As an artist I prefer to create and sell a product that I know the listener will experience in the manner it was intended (well more likely than via streaming).

My son is learning to give songs a chance, to take care of his records and equipment, and treat music listening as a sort of ceremony that gives it mire heft and meaning than the ubiquitous streaming over headphones experience most of us music lovers lament. I think vinyl should be mandatory for all music listeners so that they can properly appreciate what technology has done for convenience and fidelity.

There's definitely something to the experience you describe (the ritual, taking the time to settle in and listen to an album as a whole). When I was a three I learned how to turn on the stereo and start up a record. There was a big leather recliner chair next to the stereo and I would curl up in that, record cover in hand and listen for what seemed like hours. Sometimes it was stories (Danny Kaye was a favourite), sometimes it was music for children and sometimes it was ABBA or The Beatles. I wouldn't trade those experiences for anything - and I don't think it would have been the same with CDs or even cassettes (and it definitely would not have been the same thing with mp3s or streaming.

 

[Bulky Bass]

I still think that vinyl is great, particularly if you are able to get records that were never made into CDs. Half of my records are obscure funk and soul stuff that was only made into CDs as ultra expensive import versions. Some stuff was never released as CDs. I purchased the vinyl for much much less.

And yes, there is a nostalgic factor that I dig. Nothing beats playing my old Billie Holiday record on a rainy day…

 

[tpaul]

How’s the rotary phone comeback going?

It's coming around.

 

[Bass-ball]

It never started for me, I grew up with those noisy, warped aggravations and I'd never go back. CD's all day for me.

Yes. My son is 21, has a turntable and a few vinyls, and I sometimes say to him that's it's all we could do as kids to dream of skipping to the track we wanted perfectly, or never having to maintain our collection or hardware, etc. To me digital is like a dream world of magic and it's not lost on me at all.

I'll buy cool box sets if they come with good surround sound mixes or good liner notes, etc. Those recent Jethro Tull ones for example are perfect - they each come with a book about the album, tons of extras, and a surround sound mix (though, they're on the now defunct DVD-A format, so the only sensible way to hear them is by playing them on a universal disc player, which are hard to find).

I've also wondered, from the audio perspective, why people buy a vinyl of an album that was recorded and mixed DIGITALLY, which most stuff is since ca. 1990, give or take. Wouldn't that sort of negate the need for an analogue product?

 

[Michael Stanley 2112]

I’m writing this as my 9 year old is in the other room listening to a Laney Jones album on his new mid-level turntable he asked for and received at Christmas. Sounds really good to him and me. This is an extremely pleasant experience for me, contrasted with what he was doing previously: “alexa play (whatever random song he’s into).”

The vinyl album comeback has never been about audio quality, it’s about connection and experience. Taking away the listener’s ability to easily skip tracks and forcing them to appreciate the album as a whole, artwork included. Bringing back the album as a cohesive work of art, limiting filler and holding attention. As an artist I prefer to create and sell a product that I know the listener will experience in the manner it was intended (well more likely than via streaming).

My son is learning to give songs a chance, to take care of his records and equipment, and treat music listening as a sort of ceremony that gives it mire heft and meaning than the ubiquitous streaming over headphones experience most of us music lovers lament. I think vinyl should be mandatory for all music listeners so that they can properly appreciate what technology has done for convenience and fidelity.

This is truly excellent, especially the final two paragraphs. I hadn't thought about it this way and as I was reading what you wrote, I started looking at the vinyl "experience" in a different way.

Thank you for this!

 

[tpaul]

How’s the rotary phone comeback going?

Actually I just saw a news story saying that the new Gen Z obsession is flip phones from the '90s.

 

[fdeck]

Actually I just saw a news story saying that the new Gen Z obsession is flip phones from the '90s.

I know people who use them, to wean themselves off the constant distraction of having a smartphone.

 

[Pilgrim]

It never started for me, I grew up with those noisy, warped aggravations and I'd never go back. CD's all day for me.

I quite agree!

To quote Robert Redford as Jeremiah Johnson. "That is all you need to know."

IMO most of the love of vinyl is psycho-acoustics. If there is any real difference, I don't own the $20,000 stereo system it would take to hear it...and don't need to.

 

[Bass-ball]

I know people who use them, to wean themselves off the constant distraction of having a smartphone.

I've thought about it myself. Smartphones are so big and heavy anymore, I don't watch TV or videos on mine, so it makes practical sense. I can't stand walking around with a surfboard in my pocket. Also, yes, get off my lawn lol

 

[fdeck]

I've thought about it myself. Smartphones are so big and heavy anymore, I don't watch TV or videos on mine, so it makes practical sense. I can't stand walking around with a surfboard in my pocket. Also, yes, get off my lawn lol

The trouble is, a lot of the old dumb phones are no longer compatible with the modern cell phone networks.

 

[FilterFunk]

When it comes to older music, conversion to digital media can be hit or miss. Not everything is going to be as lovingly or painstakingly remastered as, say, a Beatles CD boxed set.

A well cared-for LP might very well sound better overall than its CD counterpart, at least in some cases. There's so much more to a great recording than just how pristine it sounds. Having said that, I'll take a properly remastered CD over a LP in excellent condition any day. Although, if I had a top-notch old-school analog component system and some well-cared-for LPs, I wouldn't get rid of them. Who says you can't have both?

 

[Bass-ball]

Not everything is going to be as lovingly or painstakingly remastered

That's where I usually pause. Don't care that much about remasters (and for some albums, the original CD pressings to me actually sound BETTER, even if a little quieter). But if someone gets their hands on the recorded reels and can do a proper remix? I'll definitely take a gander, ergo those Jethro Tull remixes I mentioned above (or the King Crimson ones Steve Wilson did). I wish somebody would remix the Led Zeppelin catalogue because it's been one remaster after another since the "crop circles" set in 1990 with little to no sonic differences between them. Maybe the tapes are lost and gone or whatever but man, getting the proper remix treatment for those would be aces.

 

[JazznFunk]

That's where I usually pause. Don't care that much about remasters (and for some albums, the original CD pressings to me actually sound BETTER, even if a little quieter). But if someone gets their hands on the recorded reels and can do a proper remix? I'll definitely take a gander, ergo those Jethro Tull remixes I mentioned above (or the King Crimson ones Steve Wilson did). I wish somebody would remix the Led Zeppelin catalogue because it's been one remaster after another since the "crop circles" set in 1990 with little to no sonic differences between them. Maybe the tapes are lost and gone or whatever but man, getting the proper remix treatment for those would be aces.

This. A lot of people don't fully grasp 'remastered' vs 'remixed.' Remixes are very uncommon (especially without artist involvement/consent), and *remasters* tend to be crap without the proper perspective from the (re)mastering engineer in terms of preservation of original dynamics and not going 'louder just to be louder'. We have volume controls for a reason.... just turn it up.

The *remix*/remaster of Pearl Jam's 'TEN' from many years ago was outstanding, and the Steven Wilson remix/remaster of 'Chicago II' shed a whole new light on that album.

 

[FenderB]

I have both setups. For me, there is something special about playing vinyl. I have a nice setup, certainly not a high-end one by any means, but I don't get the "hiss and pop" that some claim is inherent in vinyl records. You have to keep vinyl cleaner than CDs, but that's not hard to do. As far as buying used records goes, you have to know what you are buying, don't buy ones that are in bad shape.

 

[Bass-ball]

This. A lot of people don't fully grasp 'remastered' vs 'remixed.' Remixes are very uncommon (especially without artist involvement/consent), and *remasters* tend to be crap without the proper perspective from the (re)mastering engineer in terms of preservation of original dynamics and not going 'louder just to be louder'. We have volume controls for a reason.... just turn it up.

The *remix*/remaster of Pearl Jam's 'TEN' from many years ago was outstanding, and the Steven Wilson remix/remaster of 'Chicago II' shed a whole new light on that album.

That was refreshing to read. I feel like an old curmudgeon on an island shaking his fists at the sky when it comes to remastering vs remixing.

Also not sure if you saw this but Wilson "un-mastered" Porcupine Tree's "Deadwing" in 2018 (like he did with "In Absentia" and "Insurgentes"), and it's going on sale in March. Will come with a book, a documentary, and loads of extras just like the "In Absentia" set did.

Just nice to see someone like Wilson who knows they mastered the original too "hot," and then goes back to fix it (I wish Rush had done this with Vapor Trails, but sadly to me the second one still has problems).

 

[Bass-ball]

This. A lot of people don't fully grasp 'remastered' vs 'remixed.' Remixes are very uncommon (especially without artist involvement/consent), and *remasters* tend to be crap without the proper perspective from the (re)mastering engineer in terms of preservation of original dynamics and not going 'louder just to be louder'. We have volume controls for a reason.... just turn it up.

The *remix*/remaster of Pearl Jam's 'TEN' from many years ago was outstanding, and the Steven Wilson remix/remaster of 'Chicago II' shed a whole new light on that album.

I didn't know the later edition of "Ten" was a proper remix! I thought it was "just another remaster" and totally ignored it. I'll definitely check it out! Thanks!

 

[gazzatriumph]

I prefer vinyl, I kept my record collection from the 70's and 80's and a while ago bought a reasonable separates system, which includes a cd player. There is something nice about having an LP as opposed to a cd but I will buy either depending on price, I won't spend £30 on an LP when I can get a cd for £5 unless I particularly want that LP.

 

[MegaSwing]

The problem with vinyl AND cassette is obvious and baked in, IMO:

You degrade the product EVERY time you use it correctly.

Who needs THAT?