The Worlds Biggest Playable Banjo made by Gibson

[Oscar Stern]

The head for Banjozilla is a 24" Remo Ambassador Bass Drum head, as typically used on the bass drum in marching bands. The Ambassador series are the heaviest gauge Mylar that they carry. I deliberately used a standard stocked size drum head, because at the time, I didn't know how long it would last. I'm tightening it to much higher tension than a Bass drum would normally be tightened to. I didn't know if it would be good for a few years or a year? But....that same head has been on there, up to tension, for 32 years and counting. No signs of pending failure.

Banjozilla currently lives in a quiet dry corner of my music room, surrounded by my Kay upright, a 1920's walnut-case upright piano, a few misc guitars, and my collection of Scroll Basses and a few other basses. That room is only about 10 feet from my little apartment where I sleep.

I sometimes worry that some night, I'll be awakened by a deep explosion sound. With a bit of twang. The night that Banjozilla's head let go!!!

I found something that might allow Banjozilla to become an Acoustic Electric Bass Banjo, this is a Magnetic double Bass pickup which goes on the end of the fingerboard extension.

 

[Bruce Johnson]

Why not make a new 6 string 34 inch Scale Fretted Version that's voiced specifically for Nylon Strings (E.G. Thomastik AB346 Strings) called "Nylo-Banjozilla". Some Banjos have Steel Strings other have Nylon Strings. I figured out that to get a good sound w/ Nylon Strings the Drum Head has to be Thinner.

You are welcome to develop and build that if you like. I'm not interested myself. I originally built Banjozilla as 6-string, fretted, 34" scale. I played it like that for a few years, but didn't like it. It wasn't the right sound for being a Bass banjo in a bluegrass-type band. So, I converted it to 4-string, fretless, 40" scale, with an upright bass like fingerboard. I liked that much better, being more like an upright bass. A deeper more percussive sound. It's been that way for about 20 years now, and I like it.

About 10 years ago I did try some all-nylon strings (not tapewounds) on Banjozilla. The synthetic strings that some Rockabilly bassists use on their uprights. I didn't like them at all. They made Banjozilla too muted and soft sounding. I've stayed with the stainless core flatwounds since then.

 

[Bruce Johnson]

View attachment 5383963 I found something that might allow Banjozilla to become an Acoustic Electric Bass Banjo, this is a Magnetic double Bass pickup which goes on the end of the fingerboard extension.

Been there, done that, doesn't work on Banjozilla. A long story. I found out through a lot of experimenting that it's very difficult to put pickups on a bass banjo. The head is a big diaphragm in the air, and any signal that you send to an amp and pump out through the speakers becomes instant loud feedback. The head effectively becomes a giant microphone, which is much more sensitive than your ears.

I tried several combinations of magnetic and piezo pickups on Banjozilla, and they all did the same thing. Complete squealing feedback. It could not be supressed or dialed out. It's a nearly impossible problem to solve. If the head is coupled to the strings by the bridge, then it becomes a feedback machine.

The only pickup system that partially worked was putting disk piezo pickups vertically on the front face of the bridge. That put the detected signal 90 degrees out of phase with the motion of the head, which reduced the feedback somewhat.

In practical use, the only way to play Banjozilla on an amplified stage was to put a microphone a few feet in front of it, and only put the sound out through the PA front system. Not through the stage monitors. These days, I guess you'd use in-ear monitors.

It was fine recording in the studio. A good mic a few feet in front of it, playing only through the headphones.

 

[GretschWretch]

No, you're on a bass site. Why do you ask.? BTW, this is the best metal for bass… l!View attachment 5383789

This is either an e-flat tuba or else an oversize euphonium.

 

[GretschWretch]

Referencing post #27 above I find the the first pic interesting for the three string-edness on the cello-and bass-voiced instruments, but even more so for the balalaika headstocks. And different sized mandobasses in the San Diego pic? I would never have imagined.

 

[Oscar Stern]

Been there, done that, doesn't work on Banjozilla. A long story. I found out through a lot of experimenting that it's very difficult to put pickups on a bass banjo. The head is a big diaphragm in the air, and any signal that you send to an amp and pump out through the speakers becomes instant loud feedback. The head effectively becomes a giant microphone, which is much more sensitive than your ears.

I tried several combinations of magnetic and piezo pickups on Banjozilla, and they all did the same thing. Complete squealing feedback. It could not be supressed or dialed out. It's a nearly impossible problem to solve. If the head is coupled to the strings by the bridge, then it becomes a feedback machine.

The only pickup system that partially worked was putting disk piezo pickups vertically on the front face of the bridge. That put the detected signal 90 degrees out of phase with the motion of the head, which reduced the feedback somewhat.

In practical use, the only way to play Banjozilla on an amplified stage was to put a microphone a few feet in front of it, and only put the sound out through the PA front system. Not through the stage monitors. These days, I guess you'd use in-ear monitors.

It was fine recording in the studio. A good mic a few feet in front of it, playing only through the headphones.

What if the Drumhead was made out of Wood instead of Plastic? I think that might help a little bit if not alot

 

[Oscar Stern]

Gold Tone Bass Banjos do have pickups but they're specially made for Bass Banjos.

 

[Oscar Stern]

Been there, done that, doesn't work on Banjozilla. A long story. I found out through a lot of experimenting that it's very difficult to put pickups on a bass banjo. The head is a big diaphragm in the air, and any signal that you send to an amp and pump out through the speakers becomes instant loud feedback. The head effectively becomes a giant microphone, which is much more sensitive than your ears.

I tried several combinations of magnetic and piezo pickups on Banjozilla, and they all did the same thing. Complete squealing feedback. It could not be supressed or dialed out. It's a nearly impossible problem to solve. If the head is coupled to the strings by the bridge, then it becomes a feedback machine.

The only pickup system that partially worked was putting disk piezo pickups vertically on the front face of the bridge. That put the detected signal 90 degrees out of phase with the motion of the head, which reduced the feedback somewhat.

In practical use, the only way to play Banjozilla on an amplified stage was to put a microphone a few feet in front of it, and only put the sound out through the PA front system. Not through the stage monitors. These days, I guess you'd use in-ear monitors.

It was fine recording in the studio. A good mic a few feet in front of it, playing only through the headphones.

I have a cool idea, why not stuff a big towel inside the back to dampen the drumhead so that way when you use a pickup it WON'T feedback. I've seen Banjoists do that.

 

[Bruce Johnson]

I have a cool idea, why not stuff a big towel inside the back to dampen the drumhead so that way when you use a pickup it WON'T feedback. I've seen Banjoists do that.

Well, yeah, I tried that with Banjozilla and it helped reduce the feedback problem. But it also took away the banjo sound. It just sounded like an electric upright bass. It helped me figure out what was causing the feedback. It was the head moving from sound in the air, then making the strings vibrate. Stopping the head from moving stopped the feedback, but it also killed the banjo sound.

And yes, you could build an electric bass with a big round wooden body and a fairly rigid wooden disk on the front. Paint the disk white. An electric bass designed to look like a bass banjo. Send the signal through a digital synthesized clip of a banjo-like sound. A fake bass banjo. Is that what you want? I don't.

If I'm going to build a Bass Banjo, I want it to have a real functioning head, and have a real banjo sound.

 

[Bruce Johnson]

Referencing post #27 above I find the the first pic interesting for the three string-edness on the cello-and bass-voiced instruments, but even more so for the balalaika headstocks. And different sized mandobasses in the San Diego pic? I would never have imagined.

Yes, those 3-string Baritone and Bass Banjos in that first picture are interesting. I don't recognize them. They definitely look like they have some Eastern Europe/Balalaika influence. It looks like the picture says 1914. I assumed those dudes are American, but maybe they're European? Doing that new Banjo Orchestra Craze.

 

[GretschWretch]

Yes, those 3-string Baritone and Bass Banjos in that first picture are interesting. I don't recognize them. They definitely look like they have some Eastern Europe/Balalaika influence. It looks like the picture says 1914. I assumed those dudes are American, but maybe they're European? Doing that new Banjo Orchestra Craze.

The circular bodies to me suggest domras, but domras have bowl backs. And to my eyes, the headstocks are balalaika all the way.

 

[Bruce Johnson]

The circular bodies to me suggest domras, but domras have bowl backs. And to my eyes, the headstocks are balalaika all the way.

Yes, to me they look like like they were made by an Eastern European company, which normally makes balalaikas. Trying out that American Banjo craze. It's interesting, for that time period. That picture may have been brought over here by a European immigrant, a picture of his Dad's band?

 

[HaphAsSard]

Referencing post #27 above I find the the first pic interesting for the three string-edness on the cello-and bass-voiced instruments, but even more so for the balalaika headstocks. And different sized mandobasses in the San Diego pic? I would never have imagined.

Yes, those 3-string Baritone and Bass Banjos in that first picture are interesting. I don't recognize them. They definitely look like they have some Eastern Europe/Balalaika influence. It looks like the picture says 1914. I assumed those dudes are American, but maybe they're European? Doing that new Banjo Orchestra Craze.

The circular bodies to me suggest domras, but domras have bowl backs. And to my eyes, the headstocks are balalaika all the way.

Yes, to me they look like like they were made by an Eastern European company, which normally makes balalaikas. Trying out that American Banjo craze. It's interesting, for that time period. That picture may have been brought over here by a European immigrant, a picture of his Dad's band?

As is often the case, the truth is literally in the middle.
As in, in a country lying between Russia and the USA, and one which knew the Craze before any other: namely (...no, not Canada but) the UK.

Have a look here:
Clifford Essex Story - born in 1900
The dedicator in the inscribed photo, "Cliff", is likely to be either of two banjoists in the photo itself: Mr. Clifford Essex, Sr. (top right) or Jr. (bottom middle), as captioned in this lower-res version of the same picture,

^ [Possibly published on Essex Sr.'s own Banjo-Mandolin-Guitar Magazine (B.M.G.), the longest running music periodical in the UK (original run was 1903-1976) and "the oldest fretted instrument magazine in the world".
As I advised GretschWretch back in July, the collection of BMG issues once owned by the late Mr John Field, banjoist, has been (per his will) OCR-scanned and made available online with free access here:
BMG Magazines ]

Back to the instruments themselves, from the first link above:

In 1893 Clifford Essex and Alfred D. Cammeyer formed a partnership with offices and teaching studios at 59 Piccadilly, London. At first, the banjos and zither-banjos they sold under the brand name of 'Essex & Cammeyer' were made for them by Temlett, Weaver, Wilmshurst and Windsor, but early in 1896 they opened their own workshop at 13 Greek Street, Soho, and soon employed fourteen workmen to make banjos and zither-banjos for them. [...]
When Clifford Essex dissolved his partnership with Cammeyer in 1900, he formed his own firm at 15a Grafton Street, New Bond Street, London. Instruments bearing the name Clifford Essex Co. were put on the market, and at first all the banjos were made for Clifford Essex by Spencer, Weaver, Langham [London] and Houghton [Birmingham]. In 1904 he started his own workshop at The Oval, Kensington, with Alfred Dare as foreman, and when Spencer died in 1915, Clifford Essex bought his plant and stock and took his key craftsmen into his employ.
Although most of the Clifford Essex instruments sold in those early days were made in the Clifford Essex workshops, some were still made by the above-mentioned outside makers. The Weaver-made banjos were made to Weaver's own design, although they were sold with the Clifford Essex label on them. In December 1919 the firm's title changed to Clifford Essex & Son, and by then only their cheapest model 'The Popular' was made outside their own workshops by Houghton of Birmingham.

So the balalaika callbacks may well not be a coincidence, but the instruments were UK-made.

The tunings for the bass and contrabass banjo, there, are (bar virtually rummaging through all those early BMG issues for the answer) anyone's guess:
- if the balalaika connection runs deeper than just the headstock shape, they should be guitar and bass-guitar EAD, respectively;
- alternatively, for all we know, the bass might also be CGD (cello tuning minus the high A), or CGB (plectrum-banjo tuning minus the high D, but an octave below), and the contrabass GDA or something in that neighbourhood;
- or they could be a mixture of the above.

- - - - - - - - - -

Re the differently-sized mandobasses,
There is some chance they were differently-tuned as well.

This puppy, a chitarrone moderno, is a year older (1911) than the Gibson mandobass:

35.43" scale.
Link Removed
Here's a pic of what appears to be a bigger specimen by the same manufacturer, Monzino in Milan:
https://www.talkbass.com/attachment...5936737388_5722728264905067832_n-jpg.4956790/
According to Silvio Ranieri, who wrote about it in the 1910s or '20s, Monzino had introduced the instrument, then called an arcichitarra, way back in 1890:
back in July
Also per Ranieri, Monzino's instrument was tuned the same as a double bass, but a 'mandolone' by a Neapolitan competitor was instead ADGC (tololoche tuning).
Double-octave down violin/mandolin tuning (GDAE) was, possibly, another option: it is also the original tuning of the viola baixo (the Portuguese ABG, from the late 1870s).

 

[Oscar Stern]

Well, yeah, I tried that with Banjozilla and it helped reduce the feedback problem. But it also took away the banjo sound. It just sounded like an electric upright bass. It helped me figure out what was causing the feedback. It was the head moving from sound in the air, then making the strings vibrate. Stopping the head from moving stopped the feedback, but it also killed the banjo sound.

And yes, you could build an electric bass with a big round wooden body and a fairly rigid wooden disk on the front. Paint the disk white. An electric bass designed to look like a bass banjo. Send the signal through a digital synthesized clip of a banjo-like sound. A fake bass banjo. Is that what you want? I don't.

If I'm going to build a Bass Banjo, I want it to have a real functioning head, and have a real banjo sound.

Why not just have a Smaller Body like the Goldtone Bass Banjo?

 

[Oscar Stern]

Well, yeah, I tried that with Banjozilla and it helped reduce the feedback problem. But it also took away the banjo sound. It just sounded like an electric upright bass. It helped me figure out what was causing the feedback. It was the head moving from sound in the air, then making the strings vibrate. Stopping the head from moving stopped the feedback, but it also killed the banjo sound.

And yes, you could build an electric bass with a big round wooden body and a fairly rigid wooden disk on the front. Paint the disk white. An electric bass designed to look like a bass banjo. Send the signal through a digital synthesized clip of a banjo-like sound. A fake bass banjo. Is that what you want? I don't.

If I'm going to build a Bass Banjo, I want it to have a real functioning head, and have a real banjo sound.

Actually the sound is kind of in between a Double Bass & a Banjo which I think is COOLER.

 

[Oscar Stern]

Well, yeah, I tried that with Banjozilla and it helped reduce the feedback problem. But it also took away the banjo sound. It just sounded like an electric upright bass. It helped me figure out what was causing the feedback. It was the head moving from sound in the air, then making the strings vibrate. Stopping the head from moving stopped the feedback, but it also killed the banjo sound.

And yes, you could build an electric bass with a big round wooden body and a fairly rigid wooden disk on the front. Paint the disk white. An electric bass designed to look like a bass banjo. Send the signal through a digital synthesized clip of a banjo-like sound. A fake bass banjo. Is that what you want? I don't.

If I'm going to build a Bass Banjo, I want it to have a real functioning head, and have a real banjo sound.

Gold Tone Bass Banjos have Pickups but they don't feedback because they're smaller. Why not just reduce the body size of Banjozilla down to only 14 inches in Diameter? The Smaller Body does 2 things it reduces feedback & still retains the Low Pitched Banjo sound. It's supposed to sound like a Banjo but Lower Pitched.

 

[Oscar Stern]

According to the records, Gibson made only 10 of them, in the late 1920's. Only 2 are known to still exist today. The one in your picture is one of them. They were one of the references I looked at carefully when I was designing my Banjozilla.

By the way, the name Banjozilla is mine, for my upright bass banjo, which you've seen pictures of. I don't have any trademark on the name, but it's been appearing in national magazines and online since about 1994.

It's an Amazing reference & the biggest Banjo I've ever seen.

 

[Oscar Stern]

Well, yeah, I tried that with Banjozilla and it helped reduce the feedback problem. But it also took away the banjo sound. It just sounded like an electric upright bass. It helped me figure out what was causing the feedback. It was the head moving from sound in the air, then making the strings vibrate. Stopping the head from moving stopped the feedback, but it also killed the banjo sound.

And yes, you could build an electric bass with a big round wooden body and a fairly rigid wooden disk on the front. Paint the disk white. An electric bass designed to look like a bass banjo. Send the signal through a digital synthesized clip of a banjo-like sound. A fake bass banjo. Is that what you want? I don't.

If I'm going to build a Bass Banjo, I want it to have a real functioning head, and have a real banjo sound.

I have a better idea, why not shrink the body size down to 14 inches in Diameter?

 

[Oscar Stern]

Yes, to me they look like like they were made by an Eastern European company, which normally makes balalaikas. Trying out that American Banjo craze. It's interesting, for that time period. That picture may have been brought over here by a European immigrant, a picture of his Dad's band?

Bassey they have a wooden top so they sound more like they belong in a Russian Folk Orchestra.

 

[GretschWretch]

As is often the case, the truth is literally in the middle.
As in, in a country lying between Russia and the USA, and one which knew the Craze before any other: namely (...no, not Canada but) the UK.

Have a look here:
Clifford Essex Story - born in 1900
The dedicator in the inscribed photo, "Cliff", is likely to be either of two banjoists in the photo itself: Mr. Clifford Essex, Sr. (top right) or Jr. (bottom middle), as captioned in this lower-res version of the same picture,

^ [Possibly published on Essex Sr.'s own Banjo-Mandolin-Guitar Magazine (B.M.G.), the longest running music periodical in the UK (original run was 1903-1976) and "the oldest fretted instrument magazine in the world".
As I advised GretschWretch back in July, the collection of BMG issues once owned by the late Mr John Field, banjoist, has been (per his will) OCR-scanned and made available online with free access here:
BMG Magazines ]

Back to the instruments themselves, from the first link above:

So the balalaika callbacks may well not be a coincidence, but the instruments were UK-made.

The tunings for the bass and contrabass banjo, there, are (bar virtually rummaging through all those early BMG issues for the answer) anyone's guess:
- if the balalaika connection runs deeper than just the headstock shape, they should be guitar and bass-guitar EAD, respectively;
- alternatively, for all we know, the bass might also be CGD (cello tuning minus the high A), or CGB (plectrum-banjo tuning minus the high D, but an octave below), and the contrabass GDA or something in that neighbourhood;
- or they could be a mixture of the above.

- - - - - - - - - -

Re the differently-sized mandobasses,
There is some chance they were differently-tuned as well.

This puppy, a chitarrone moderno, is a year older (1911) than the Gibson mandobass:
View attachment 5384839
35.43" scale.
Link Removed
Here's a pic of what appears to be a bigger specimen by the same manufacturer, Monzino in Milan:
https://www.talkbass.com/attachment...5936737388_5722728264905067832_n-jpg.4956790/
According to Silvio Ranieri, who wrote about it in the 1910s or '20s, Monzino had introduced the instrument, then called an arcichitarra, way back in 1890:
back in July
Also per Ranieri, Monzino's instrument was tuned the same as a double bass, but a 'mandolone' by a Neapolitan competitor was instead ADGC (tololoche tuning).
Double-octave down violin/mandolin tuning (GDAE) was, possibly, another option: it is also the original tuning of the viola baixo (the Portuguese ABG, from the late 1870s).