Frets are based on musical theory. Don't want to be restricted by being forced to use theory?
Go fretless.
Go fretless.
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theory over rated
- Thread starter helterschecter
- Start date
It's not a direct suggestion people make, it's just the underlying vibe I get off threads like this. Maybe it's just me
No offense, but it really is just you.
Nobody is saying that or even implying it.I've often wondered about something. What would you say to the person who doesn't know theory to save his life but who can write songs?
I have a good friend that I've know for years who plays guitar. No, he's not a great guitar player but he never set out to be. Nor is he trying to "make it" either and he's never played guitar in a band. Just writes for fun. But he writes some really good stuff. Great lyrics, great melodies and hooks.....barely has a clue as to what chords he's playing. I really don't think he even knows what makes a chord major or minor. But he's more than got a great imagination to the point of me saying "why should he even bother with something like theory?" I think it would totally take away from him being himself.
I was even working with him one day and while showing me one of his songs he says...'the next chord is...uh...it's a C with this note added." (It was a C7). I told him it was C7 and he said "I'll try to remember that!"
Later on he even said "sometimes I wish I knew things a bit better. But the way I look at it is either I hear it or I don't."
I have a good friend that I've know for years who plays guitar. No, he's not a great guitar player but he never set out to be. Nor is he trying to "make it" either and he's never played guitar in a band. Just writes for fun. But he writes some really good stuff. Great lyrics, great melodies and hooks.....barely has a clue as to what chords he's playing. I really don't think he even knows what makes a chord major or minor. But he's more than got a great imagination to the point of me saying "why should he even bother with something like theory?" I think it would totally take away from him being himself.
I was even working with him one day and while showing me one of his songs he says...'the next chord is...uh...it's a C with this note added." (It was a C7). I told him it was C7 and he said "I'll try to remember that!"
Later on he even said "sometimes I wish I knew things a bit better. But the way I look at it is either I hear it or I don't."
Fret are base on math. Pythagore ( don,t know if is name is written like that in english ) found that a perfect fifth is at x distance from the nut, no matter the scale of the string nor the gauge. and so ... every other note between the nut and the fifth fret are only mathematical subdivision of the string. So it lead to instrument that could play in every key, while for many centuries an harpsichord could only play in a given key because all notes will be off in another key. Like if it where in D major it couldn't play in any other key or it will be all off.
So even a fretless bass follow thoses rules but yeah you can play a true 3rd on a fretless instrument.
Why would you think that? Why would, for example, being able to say "C7" rather than "C with this note added" harm his ability to write songs?
As i said before music industry/music theory are two seperate things. Selling 15 million albums has to do with many things, theory is the least of them. To have sold 15 million albums is a great thing and congratulations on doing so.
But come on cookbooks,,,really? Cookbooks like other books of instruction they help you avoid mistakes and give you ideas to try in the hope you will come up with some of your own.
Inventing your own creations...how about pork that can last 7 days, so once cooked it could then be reheated each night with different combination to make new and exciting forms of food poison.
Point of fact anyone can cook, But if you want to make a living from it you better know Heath and Hygene laws and rules that apply to you business. Nobody makes it lucky as a Chef, you are judged by your skills. So it is is the pro world of music, you are judged and hired for your skills... not to be lucky.
I know exactly where you are coming from here. I have encountered a variety of guys over the years who had no training whatsoever, but were excellent musicians and songwriters.
One, in particular, (I won't mention his name) is a drummer who has never had a lesson in his life on ANY instrument yet writes BEAUTIFUL songs on the keys and has no clue whatsoever what he is doing and has won 2 grammys.....go figure.
Now, if we followed the idea that "no theory - no play" this guy would never have stood a chance, yet he bucked "conventional wisdom" and has made a good living for him and his family.
I dunno - works for some and others it doesn't
Its not that hard to sell 1 million albums. You just need to be suckered into signing a crappy contract to do it quickly!
No offense, but it really is just you.
No offense taken
It's not like I'm claiming to be right all the time, that's my wife... 
That cookbook analogy is pretty bad. A cookbook would be more like a music notation book for songs your band is doing. The parts are already laid out for you and you just follow them. Theory would be more in line with just knowing how to cook. You understand why things taste good together, why things taste bad together, and how to put things together using either the bare minimum of ingredients or a whole kitchen full of them.
You can still use a cookbook for ideas, but by knowing how to actually cook you can look at a recipe and say, "Yeah, that's good. But I can change this, add a little more of that, and make this dish 100 times better than what the book is telling me to do."
You can still use a cookbook for ideas, but by knowing how to actually cook you can look at a recipe and say, "Yeah, that's good. But I can change this, add a little more of that, and make this dish 100 times better than what the book is telling me to do."
Someone else addressed this in an earlier post. Your friend is naturally doing it correct. And all it means is that he would and could ace a college music theory class if he really wanted to. The only reason he doesn't is because he is possibly intellectually lazy. He is already doing "theory" because he knows which chords go with what. He just does not want to take the time to learn the names of them.
Your friend is lucky he is able to do this. But a lot of people are not so lucky, especially full amateur musicians who (in my example 4 pages ago) try to fit inappropriate riffs and patterns into music. (see my example of a metal dood trying to play blues-based pentatonic metal leads into a bluegrass or early country tune)
As to Johnny Staind, what he said absolutely proves my point. To play HIS type of music (metal) you don't need to know anything beyond the riffs and patterns one would typically use to play metal.
This is no real slur against him or against metal. Form and function follow need. If all you need to play metal is to know a few riffs, have a good skill with a pick, be able to play a bass not only dropped tuned low, but worn physically low, down to your knees, then that's ok! Some types of music are more about image and aggression then they are about the actual music.
I always get a kick when I hear the same notes used in a heavy metal song, played by brass instruments in a big-band setting....it just doesn't work, which leads me to believe that 90% of metal is very limited. It does not translate into other things.
As much as I am not a huge fan of the beatles, THEIR songs could be played in almost any style, from Bossa Nova to classical, and still sound good and make sense musically.
I could 'naturally hear' it myself, but it would take me far too long to stop what I was doing and figure out the right chord on the fly. I started learning theory because I wasn't fast enough physically to keep up with what I was hearing in my head. Theory has helped me out in those regards tremendously
But extrem type of metal came from classical music like Wagner ( who get a very big upright bass that needed 2 players to play ... ) and the dodecaphonic area.
Wagner may have the acoustic power of metal, but it is far more complicated. No comparison AT ALL.
Many extrem metal band write music very technical that few people can play just because it is technically too complex and they use odd meter, chords that you won't find in other genre except classical.
How many different instruments, & how many different singers? No contest. Compare all you like, but Wagner is a different class of complexity.
Take a popular tune like - "Kill the Wabbit" aka Die Walküre. There is more going on in the background of a more technical nature - which nobody is aware of - than any metal tune.
Invalid Link Removed it helps if you can read German and sheet music.
Just check out the instrumentation and try to tell me metal compares in complexity.
Take a popular tune like - "Kill the Wabbit" aka Die Walküre. There is more going on in the background of a more technical nature - which nobody is aware of - than any metal tune.
Invalid Link Removed it helps if you can read German and sheet music.
Just check out the instrumentation and try to tell me metal compares in complexity.
Very much true.
Metal can be compared to classical music only in the darkness and power that some classical music has. But Wagner has moments of sweetness and light as well, and that is lacking in most metal.
The first comparison of wagner to modern music was in relation to the band, "the who" by some rock journalist of the time. And The Who has always had much more complexity then the average metal band.
I still maintain that most music, no matter how simple, has some degree of theory involved. Theory is what makes music sound good, and logical.
I can only think of some examples where theory doesn't apply, or is not used...one noteable example is the music of Howling Wolf (if memory serves me correct) where he was totally playing the wrong changes and chords left and right. It still worked for HIM but other musicians found it impossible to play.
Even in "rap" music, some type of theory is involved. If you have verses, choruses, bridges, beginings, endings, tempo, bass parts...well, you have "music theory".
I think the OP (and many others) are certainly confused as to what theory is, or isn;t.
It is often said that the langauge of God is mathematics...well, that IS "theory". You can't have gravity without the underlying theory of gravity. Just because you don't know what that theory is, does not mean you aren't using it to describe gravity. Theory is the language, music is what comes from that language.
The cool thing is, that with theory, you can break down the most complicated into a simple form - and it still works. Might lose power and impact, but harmonically, it will still stand.
I know exactly where you are coming from here. I have encountered a variety of guys over the years who had no training whatsoever, but were excellent musicians and songwriters.
One, in particular, (I won't mention his name) is a drummer who has never had a lesson in his life on ANY instrument yet writes BEAUTIFUL songs on the keys and has no clue whatsoever what he is doing and has won 2 grammys.....go figure.
Now, if we followed the idea that "no theory - no play" this guy would never have stood a chance, yet he bucked "conventional wisdom" and has made a good living for him and his family.
I dunno - works for some and others it doesn't
I've got a word for the people that you and I mentioned. It's called "gifted." They hear it, they find it and they don't question it.
Slays me how some people just can't seem to accept that some people work like that.
I really like your link. But there is metal that can compare.
‪Lash by Lash -Spawn of Possession‬‏ - YouTube
