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theory over rated

I really like your link. But there is metal that can compare.

‪Lash by Lash -Spawn of Possession‬‏ - YouTube

Mayers, that is really complex music. But it is not really comparable to technical skill required to play classical music. There is more involved in classical music then just rapidly changing themes and patterns.

I would like to ask the guys in that band, how long it took them to learn and practice that song.

I know classical musicians who (because of their training and theory) would be able to sight read that piece if it was written down note for note. They are able to play stravinsky, bartok and prokokief no problem, after just a few orchestra rehearsals.

But having said that, if I was into metal THAT example you posted would be what I listened to mostly.

Too bad everyone in the band is accomplished musicians except the "vocalist".

Imagine what a Rob Halford could do with music like that. I asbolutely HATE that cookie monster style of growling. Truly horrible.

But the rest of the band is very, very good.

Now, here are some classical pieces you might like:

 
Mayers, that is really complex music. But it is not really comparable to technical skill required to play classical music. There is more involved in classical music then just rapidly changing themes and patterns.

I would like to ask the guys in that band, how long it took them to learn and practice that song.

I know classical musicians who (because of their training and theory) would be able to sight read that piece if it was written down note for note. They are able to play stravinsky, bartok and prokokief no problem, after just a few orchestra rehearsals.

But having said that, if I was into metal THAT example you posted would be what I listened to mostly.

Too bad everyone in the band is accomplished musicians except the "vocalist".

Imagine what a Rob Halford could do with music like that. I asbolutely HATE that cookie monster style of growling. Truly horrible.

But the rest of the band is very, very good.

Now, here are some classical pieces you might like:

‪Scythian Suite part 1&2‬‏ - YouTube

‪Igor Stravinsky "The Rite of Spring"‬‏ - YouTube

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‪Gustav Holst - The Planets Op.32 Mars, the Bringer of War‬‏ - YouTube

Yeah I like it thank. I also like Chopin a lot, he has some kind of emotionnal level that amaze me. I'm also a big fan of classical chinease music.

I studied classical music during college. I know how complicated it can be or the share difficulty of playing it.

I was just on the fence because every mainstream band are the most simple stuff in any given style of music not just metal/punk/rap are like that. When you dig a little is when you find really more complex and more accomplish musician that was my point.

Thank again for your link, I really dig Scynthian Suite part 1&2
 
I still maintain that most music, no matter how simple, has some degree of theory involved. Theory is what makes music sound good, and logical.

I can only think of some examples where theory doesn't apply, or is not used...one noteable example is the music of Howling Wolf (if memory serves me correct) where he was totally playing the wrong changes and chords left and right. It still worked for HIM but other musicians found it impossible to play.

Even in "rap" music, some type of theory is involved. If you have verses, choruses, bridges, beginings, endings, tempo, bass parts...well, you have "music theory".

I think the OP (and many others) are certainly confused as to what theory is, or isn;t.

It is often said that the langauge of God is mathematics...well, that IS "theory". You can't have gravity without the underlying theory of gravity. Just because you don't know what that theory is, does not mean you aren't using it to describe gravity. Theory is the language, music is what comes from that language.


I was thinking similar before. Many assume that music theory is about chords, and scales. Meanwhile, rhythm and structure (openings, codas, phrases, licks, riffs, verse, chorus, bridge, and the such as mentioned) are just as important.

Go ahead, play the most awesome, technical, virtuosic at the highest speed possible but if you do not have structure or rhythm, you are merely amateur.

Now, as bassists, we NEED the rhythm. That is a major part of music theory, in fact, its pretty much how every book on theory begins.

Even looking at tabs can be considered music theory. You are playing something that is written out and you are reading it and applying it to your instrument. Plus, you are playing music that most likely follows the structure of at least 2 theoretical lessons.

Some people are overzealous when it comes to theory, some people just want to seem so rebellious that they shun it.

Either way, its there. It is what it is and even if you play by ear, you are most likely playing some lesson in a book somewhere.
 
Phew, a lot of misconception and general foolishness in this thread (did we expect anything else?).

Before I get into my theory rant, here's a few asides...

Even in "rap" music, some type of theory is involved. If you have verses, choruses, bridges, beginings, endings, tempo, bass parts...well, you have "music theory".

Although you're trying to prove a point that I agree with, you're also belittling a genre of music that deserves very serious and intricate analysis. At least this music theory journal thinks so...

MTO 15.5: Adams, Flow in Rap Music

If you talk to MC's about their craft, they might not be able to speak this technically about it, but they are well aware about the intricate issues of prosody and rhythm in their music, and the multitudes of different approaches people have had.

I really like your link. But there is metal that can compare.

‪Lash by Lash -Spawn of Possession‬‏ - YouTube

I know that fans of technical metal love to feel superior in liking what they believe to be a complicated and deeply intellectual style of music, but if you want to have a "complexity"-off, it's kind of pointless, there's going to be stuff out there far more complicated and difficult to play and understand.

For example, the above link was spastic and technically demanding, but so are Frank Zappa tunes, which are even more spastic and technically demanding. The below, for example.

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The "Spawn of Possession" tune you have there is fast with some odd metered stuff, sure, but it only ever has 1 line of counterpoint going on at one time (really, just a guitar solo, and beyond that, just a harmonized unison), has two key centers, zero dynamic range, never changes tempo, very little in the way of harmony (mostly synthetic scales over pedal point), and a very limited number of timbral textures.

Anyway.....

Back to the point at hand regarding theory in general...

The main point I have to make here isn't necessarily going to add too much to the argument "for" or "against" theory, because I think it's an argument that's not only worthless, it's also nonsensical. Like discussed on here so many times (it never seems to stick...sigh) Music theory is not a list of rules that you have to follow in order to make "correct" music. It is also not a "stifling" agent that stamps out creativity. Music theory is simply knowledge about music. If you argue against learning theory, you're arguing against knowing stuff about music. Don't believe me?

Say you're completely ignorant to all things bass guitar and you happen to get one as a gift for your birthday. You think you know absolutely nothing about music, but you decide to start messing around, putting your fingers on the strings in different places, and then plucking the strings. You quickly find out that the strings closer to the ground somehow sound "higher" than the strings closer to you, which sound "lower." If you put your fingers on the frets further on up the neck, the notes sound higher too.

Eventually you find that if you put your fingers on the fifth fret of a string and play the string above it, it sounds basically the same, with a slight difference. You might also find out some other things, like strumming the bass like a guitar sounds muddy. Eventually, you could find out that sometimes playing two notes together can sound nice, but sometimes they sound harsh (2nd fret on one string and open string below, nice! 4th fret on one string and open string above, harsh!)

Through all of this, which might have been an hour or two of experimentation, you've learned a hell of a lot of music theory. You first learned about the basic acoustical properties of pitch (through moving up and down on the neck), then you learned about timbre (two notes that have the same pitch, but sound different, on the 5th fret), acoustics (specifically, Lower Interval Limits and why strumming a bass sounds muddy), and even the basics of intervals and intervallic consonance/dissonance.

Of course, you don't know the technical terms for all of this, but that doesn't matter, you still have that knowledge in relationship to your limited experience on the bass, you just can't describe it. People who argue for ignorance of theory likely know a lot about music anyway, they just don't know what things are called in theoretical language. This brings up the point, why even have the theoretical language to describe musical phenomenon?

Communication. Theoretical language is a way to communicate to other human beings concepts of music in a very clear and unambiguous way that accurately describes what is happening in the music. Over a thousand years, this language has been codified and regulated in a way that anybody who learns in anywhere in the world can accurately describe what is happening in the music, why it sounds the way it does, and perhaps gives clues as to how to replicate the desired musical effects. All this theoretical language is is a means of communicating in English (or any other language, for that matter) musical ideas. Even improvising language like "that drum diddly you did with the fast snare beat" counts as a theoretical explanation. Even if its a crude and incomplete analysis of the music at hand, if it gets the point across, it's done it's purpose. That improvised theoretical description communicated a musical concept.

You see, I'm not arguing that everybody should go out and study fugal counterpoint, serial composition and worship at the heels of Allan Forte. Obviously in depth study of highly technical matters of advanced music theory is completely irrelevant to most all of our musical careers, and nobody should feel like they should.

If you an amateur hobbyist who simply likes playing bass because it's fun, of course you don't need any in-depth knowledge of the technical terms of what you're doing - just have fun with what you're learning for yourself! Even if you're a working bassist on the highest possible professional level doesn't mean you have any particularly in-depth knowledge of theory beyond what you need to communicate with your fellow musicians effectively.

What I have a problem with here isn't people who are willfully ignorant to the technical terms. Not having any desire or need to learn this intricate body of what can potentially be extremely dry knowledge is fine by me. Despite being absolutely essential to the careers of hundreds of thousands of people, I have little knowledge of calculus, and I don't have any particular desire to go out an learn more. It has no bearing on my professional or personal goals, so I am willfully ignorant of calculus, and I don't think anybody really cares, nor has the right to care, that I am.

What I have a problem with is the pride that people take in their willful ignorance of the language. I don't know Japanese, but it would be really strange if I was proud that I didn't know Japanese. Even stranger to suggest that because I didn't know Japanese, somehow I was more creative a thinker and communicator.
 
if you follow theory, you end up playing stuff everyone else played already.. similar to cooking from a cookbook instead of inventing your own creations. it is a fact you dont need theory to be successful. i think it is a good thing to know, but not required. maybe if i had studied theory i would not be where i am, i play the way i do because i figured it out myself. 15 million albums aint that bad.

First off, good on you for doing well - you are living proof that one does not have to study music to "make it" in the business and to sell millions of records. Congratulations, indeed!

I think, however, that your argument that an understanding of music theory destroys creativity is flawed. Most of the time anyone plays coherent music, they are following theory even if they don't know it! A lot of the time where people believe that they have discovered a unique personal approach, they are really re-discovering something which is already well established, and it isn't really that original or unique after all.
 
Its not that hard to sell 1 million albums. You just need to be suckered into signing a crappy contract to do it quickly!
Uh huh. Well if it's so easy, how come your odds of getting hit by lightning in the same day as you win Lotto are better? ;) Trust me...it ain't easy to even sell a hundred records, let alone 15 million.

But while I take a backseat to nobody in my appreciation of Johnny A's talents, I think Johnny sometimes forgets that he's one who beat the tremendous odds. I love to play music, but if it wasn't for knowing how to read and write music, my music career would have been over at 30. And the implication that those of who know theory can't use our ears or come up some stuff that's creative kind of hurts my feelings. Sorry but it does. I work hard to be a player who doesn't run scales or play it safe. Without theory I'd totally play it safe, IMHO.
 
Learn theory and apply it to your playing.
You had to learn your ABC's to talk and write english.
Theory is the same process.
Don't be lame "Just Do it"

Well, here's where some folks come in with the idea that theory isn't helpful. Because we DON'T need to learn the alphabet in order to speak English. That generally starts (at least learning a language as a native) with an aural learning process. But at some point most folks start to learn accepted grammar rules which are analogous to learning basic theory concepts. They also learn to read which opens them up to getting a LOT more information than is available with just hearing the spoken words of their immediate environment.

In the same way that understanding subject/verb agreement, helps you communicate with words clearly, learning basic harmony theory helps you determine which notes go well with a particular melody and/or chord progression. And in the same way that being able to read William Shakespeare, Robert Frost, C. S. Lewis, etc. helps you not only have a wider range of input in developing your thoughts but also gives you a wider range of inputs in expressing your thoughts, understanding the language of music helps you have a wider range of ways to augment your musical imagination, and more options for different ways to express it.

And again, learning theory won't stifle your creativity unless YOU let it do that. It ain't knowing stuff that will cause you to not be creative, it's you not being creative that'll do that.

John
 
You don't need expertise at theory to be a successful musician. You don't need to know anything about investment and accounting to make a million dollars.

Once the fame of the current trend is over you can survive on local touring and bar/casino gigs. Once the millions are gone you can get a job and do just fine.

Myself I like to know what I'm doing when it comes to my job - music - and I want to know when a manager/accountant/agent is robbing me blind sooner than later.

You'll get by just fine, but why reinvent everything every time you do something? Better minds have been working on this stuff for years. You are STUPID not to take advantage of it if it will make you smarter, faster, richer or healthier.

Then again I know talented folks who will drive hours to get to a gig, spend hours setting up, play 3 to 4 hours, pack up and drive home for $100 profit after expenses - if they are lucky - while talentless hacks who know people make a killing.

It isn't fair. Get over it. Do everything you can to stack things in your favor. Learn the craft.

Or just go and jam and have fun. That works too.
 
Uh huh. Well if it's so easy, how come your odds of getting hit by lightning in the same day as you win Lotto are better? ;) Trust me...it ain't easy to even sell a hundred records, let alone 15 million.

But while I take a backseat to nobody in my appreciation of Johnny A's talents, I think Johnny sometimes forgets that he's one who beat the tremendous odds. I love to play music, but if it wasn't for knowing how to read and write music, my music career would have been over at 30. And the implication that those of who know theory can't use our ears or come up some stuff that's creative kind of hurts my feelings. Sorry but it does. I work hard to be a player who doesn't run scales or play it safe. Without theory I'd totally play it safe, IMHO.

I am an admirer of the band Staind. I can't say I have any of thier albums, but along with other nu-metal bands like Papa Roach, they are simply excellent at what they do. Having said that, just because you sold 15 million albums in a metal band gives you no edge (in my opinion) over some of the other bassists even on this forum, especially when it comes to talking about theory.
What does impress me about people like Johnny Staind is that, for his band to have made it required all the constellations lining up: Good songs, pro attitude, luck, hard work and talent. For him to have sold 15 million albums means he has all those things going for him. That gets my respect. BUT, it does not mean I agree that theory ever stifles creativity....and I am 100% sure that as long as I can wear a wig and lose about 20 years (and maybe 20 pounds) I could certainly learn all of Staind's songs and do a gig with them, no problem!

:hiding:


PS, I would also need to get a LOT of tatts and some piercings to make this fly!
 
I never understood the, "learning theory impedes creativity" thing. How come this isn't prevalent in other arts? I've never heard a writer suggest they create better stories without knowing how to read and write well, nor a painter who claims to paint better without knowing how colours mix.
 
I never understood the, "learning theory impedes creativity" thing. How come this isn't prevalent in other arts? I've never heard a writer suggest they create better stories without knowing how to read and write well, nor a painter who claims to paint better without knowing how colours mix.

+1

Some writers and painter's seem to have an instinct on how to mix color's or create textures or create interesting character's with compelling plot twists.
Some people haven't got a clue how to do any of that but when taught the basic's of form and function or basic story structure and plot take off where the sky's the limit.

I don't understand why some people can say something is useless when people are not only using it but benefiting from it. That's just pure dogmatic ignorance.
 
There's nothing wrong with learning theory. I'm in the process of teaching myself some theory, and it's fun in its own way, but I'm nowhere near the point of being able to know why this chord fits in with this chord but not that chord. I also know something about scales, but I'm having a hard time comprehending modes, not how they're made but how they fit into music. I understand what the notes and squiggles mean in sheet music, but I'll never learn to read like a concert pianist - too old, and I don't think I have that many years left on the planet.

I think interval training is of primary importance, and phrasing is crucial to good playing, but IMO the most important thing is to simply play music. Learn songs, and lots of them! ;)
 
There's nothing wrong with learning theory. I'm in the process of teaching myself some theory, and it's fun in its own way, but I'm nowhere near the point of being able to know why this chord fits in with this chord but not that chord. I also know something about scales, but I'm having a hard time comprehending modes, not how they're made but how they fit into music.
That's because they're not supposed to fit into music. Using modes is a big reason why people think players who know theory sound boring and uncreative. The chords and key sig (and of course some experience with bands) tell you all you need to know.
 
You don't have to, but I would suggest that you do. Alot of people say (Mostly Guitarists) say "Your not a real musician until you learn the scales." I disagree. But learning the scales does help. Your Choice.
 
Wow - I can't believe this thread has gone on for 9 pages.

Two thoughts occur to me...

1) Almost anyone I've ever seen "speak out" against learning theory has a very poor notion of the meaning of "theory", in general, and "music theory", more specifically.

2) Every single person posting in this thread knows a certain amount of music theory. Many of them, probably know a great deal more than they think they do.
 
What you're talking about isn't the difference between using theory and using your ears...it's the difference between using scalar theory and chordal theory. People who concentrate on figuring out what mode to play over every chord in a song sound like they're running scales and not playing what they feel. Now when you use the chords to figure out what to play, there is so much more shading you can add into it that isn't limited to sticking to only the 7 notes in whatever scale or mode you're using. And instead of an academic exercise, it sounds more like music that comes from the heart.

This is something I've heard from a few folks and most notably Carol Kaye. There is really no difference between "chordal" theory and "scalar" theory, it is just two different ways of thinking about the exact same thing.

I also think that's a generalization to say that "people who concentrate on figuring out what mode to play over every chord in a song sound like they're running scales"...you could just as easily claim that people who play chord tones over songs sound like they're running arpeggios.

If you study through Kaye's methods (which I have) you will see that she almost immediately gets to the "Chordal Scale". What she calls the Chordal scale is the Major scale and the following Diatonic modes, there is no difference other than the terminology involved.

The only reason I'm making a point about this is because I wasted a lot of time studying theory by buying into everything one person said over another. As a younger student, I argued with several teachers about scales and modes and chord tones etc. rather than just taking as much in as I could and letting my ears figure out the rest.
 
Here lies the difference, Micah...when you use chords as a basis for what to play, you can play any note in the chromatic scale, even notes not in the chords. But when you think modally or scalar, you limit yourself to a certain amount of notes because that's what modal playing is...limiting yourself to a smaller pool of notes. Plus it's another layer of thinking you would have to do on a gig when you're given a chord sheet. I totally agree that people who only play chord tones sound like they're running arpeggios. But that isn't what chords are about. That IS, however, what scales are about.