Theory vs. Feel

[jay tay]

In my experience playing with technical players who are ignorant to theory, I find them much more "mechanical" than those who do. Regardless of if you know theory or not, you're brain is actively planning/executing lines when you play. The person ignorant to theory, when it comes to technical lines is very restricted, generally adapting to a "this finger goes here, than this finger goes here" type approach. While the person who knows theory, can analyze the lines, understand the rhythm, the harmony, the melody, and as a result can embellish them.

Understanding theory, when it comes to technical music, makes it much less like learning dance steps, and it makes it more like playing music. It's like communicating in English, without understanding grammar. It's possible, many do it. Yet understanding grammar just helps you convey your intended meaning more efficiently. It heightens your intuition in conversation, it allows you pick up on subtleties (especially with humor).

I think most people to go through a period, when learning theory, where they restrict themselves with it. As you point out, some people will complain about something not fitting with theory. However that doesn't really make sense, and speaks more for their still small knowledge of theory. Theory isn't a rule book, music doesn't fit to theory. Theory is simply a streamlined method for understanding music. There are no rights or wrongs for what tones can go together. People who you have encountered with that attitude are misinformed.

This is what I was trying to get at with my post, It's not the theory that limits the player, it's their understanding of that theory.

But also, I think theory is what it is... its a theory, not necessarily fact. There are many different theory's out their, and some of them contradict each other. All work for different people. I think its about finding that right mix of different theory, feel, intuition, and creative expression, that will work for you, and then find some others that can share that vision and play with you.

at the end of the day, music is art, and their is art theory that goes along with any media. The real fun for me is sharing ideas, and theory, and concepts, discussing them, and trialling different things with other artists, to help expand and further everyone's knowledge and understanding... kind of like what we're doing here!

I guess what I was trying to say was that, some people see art in black and white, because that's the way they have been shown it, or that's the way they can understand it, the truth is art exists in a whole spectrum of colours, if it was all just black and white, right and wrong, it wouldn't be art.

 

[Art Araya]

I've got a Bachelor's Degree in music. It's been both a blessing and a curse.

It's been a curse in that you need to learn to turn off your brain at some point and trust your ears. When you can do that, it's a blessing to have the theory knowledge to draw upon.

 

[zachoff]

Seems like a lot of the theory-based folks in this thread play other people's music & the non-theory folks don't. It's true in my case (I don't play other people's music as a general rule) and from what I've seen it's true in the last few posts with the Steelers Wheel tune & learning 18th century classical & playing covers, anyway.

 

[Roy Vogt]

For all of you professionals and semi-pros, just wondering what your level of theory education is. There must be quite a few out there that don't know what a diminished 7th is or how to incorporate the Circle of Fifths (I'm hoping).

Just to put things back to the OP's question.
Semi-pros may be serious hobbyists or weekend warriors. They may be high school students, college kids or highly trained professionals in another field who play on the side to let off steam, have a hobby, make a few bucks, or take the first steps to a Music Career. There is no skill level required other than basic bandsmanship (locking with the drums, knowing the music, being able to imitate or create simple lines, etc.). Knowing anything more about Music Theory (Major and Minor Chords, Progressions, etc.) can't help but help them play better.
Pros are indeed all over the map. Jared Followell from Kings of Leon learned on the job. So, yes, there are Rock Stars who know little or nothing. They have won the equivalent of The Lottery.
There are also Lottery Millionaires as well as Warren Buffet. If I were going to get financial advice, I'd probably ask Warren.
FWIW, I have met more than one broke Rock Star who knew nothing about Music or Finance. It's truly heartbreaking.....
Learning how Music works won't screw up your Art. Theory and Academics and Art are two different things (Jeff Berlin was right). Theory just gives you a better understanding and the ability to make more choices. As others have posted, Street (Feel), Knowledge (Theory) and Skill (Sightreading, Technique, Stylistic Versatility, etc.) will make you a worthy competitor in a highly competitive field.
Think about how relatively short the career of the Beatles was. Even if your band conquers the world, it may only do so for 10 years or less. I can't help but wonder what the relative ease of lifestyle of members of The Romantics, The Replacements, The Buzzcocks, Tucky Buzzard, RATT, and other Rock Stars of 2, 3 or 4 decades past is.
The late Tommy Tedesco once likened being a Studio Musician to playing in the NFL. Think about every kid who plays Pop Warner Football. Now, think about the ones who make the team in Junior High, High School and even College. Now, think about the ones who even make Combine or one or two years in the NFL. Then think of the Tom Bradys. Those are some pretty long odds to attempt on raw talent (however awesome) alone.
Nashville is a rarity in that the Studio Players can only have a great feel, great ears, and great musical instincts for their specialty of style. However, Nashville could go the way of Muscle Shoals, Memphis or Detroit at any time. Having those additional job skills may allow you to make a transition to another part of your Musical Life and Career.
I've counseled obsolete Nashville Studio Bassists before and it's heartbreaking-they can't get their heads around the fact that even though they're on tons of entries in Allmusic things have changed and they haven't adapted. Rough stuff!
All of this is to say that it's never a bad idea to have as many skills as possible.
My $.02

 

[masterFlash]

You have to know theory. At least some. Even if you have an 'original' act. Lets say, I write a song that is A-D-E. The singer says 'I can't sing in A. Play that in F#'. How am I gonna transpose without knowing key Signatures?

That said, theory is a tool to help you get the right feel and sound.

 

[MtManiac]

Seems like a lot of the theory-based folks in this thread play other people's music & the non-theory folks don't. It's true in my case (I don't play other people's music as a general rule) and from what I've seen it's true in the last few posts with the Steelers Wheel tune & learning 18th century classical & playing covers, anyway.

I'm 41. Music is not a full-time gig for me, I made that decision 22 years or so ago, and it wasn't due to lack of talent or an excess of training, but due to opportunities that lay elsewhere, the pursuit of which has made me very successful and happy; having said that, I know far many more "washed up musicians" like myself but who do *not* play at all anymore, who were once successful, who also have had zero training, than I do musicians who are playing full-time professionally well into their 40s, 50s, 60s and 70s who *have* had training. The guys who used to play but now don't all eventually hit a wall - their style of music died out or ceased to be popular, and they didn't have the skills or the know-how to go anywhere else with their instrument, so it eventually stayed in a closet forgotten and gathering dust. In contrast, every aged musician I know who is still playing has had varying degrees of training, and they're still loving what they do. Most are full-time jazz musicians who also delve into other styles whenever they get a chance, and let me tell you they are mother f***ers on their instruments and don't even ask me if they have any "feel" or not, it's a ridiculous question. They can play *anything*. In my experience, there is a direct relationship between the amount of training someone has had and the length and breadth of their musical career. So whatever you're extrapolating from this thread, I'd suggest it's a dangerous extrapolation for you to apply to your own life.

When your brand of stoner rock no longer pays the bills, assuming that it currently does, how will you build a bridge to doing something else in music that you find to be fulfilling? No need to give me an answer, but it's a question you'd be wise to ask of yourself.

EDIT: and pardon me, but this is fascinating for me - I don't intend this as any kind of attack, I'm just really fascinated - only playing your own music and no one else's "as a general rule" you may eventually find to be very limiting and boring. It's like saying you won't read any words except those you have written. How will you learn anything at all? Doesn't hearing other people's music just make you wish you could play it? How do you restrain yourself? I hear music, and while listening and being absorbed in the flow of sound, I'm also listening with my brain, understanding what the song is doing, appreciating the elegant simplicity or the elegant complexity of the arrangement, the interplay between melody and harmony and rhythm, the cleverness of what one player just did - in any style of music, and I listen to them all, except dance and club music. Listening to it (whatever it is) just makes me want to play it.

 

[dvh]

I'm 41. Music is not a full-time gig for me, I made that decision 22 years or so ago, and it wasn't due to lack of talent or an excess of training, but due to opportunities that lay elsewhere, the pursuit of which has made me very successful and happy; having said that, I know far many more "washed up musicians" like myself but who do *not* play at all anymore, who were once successful, who also have had zero training, than I do musicians who are playing full-time professionally well into their 40s, 50s, 60s and 70s who *have* had training. The guys who used to play but now don't all eventually hit a wall - their style of music died out or ceased to be popular, and they didn't have the skills or the know-how to go anywhere else with their instrument, so it eventually stayed in a closet forgotten and gathering dust. In contrast, every aged musician I know who is still playing has had varying degrees of training, and they're still loving what they do. Most are full-time jazz musicians who also delve into other styles whenever they get a chance, and let me tell you they are mother f***ers on their instruments and don't even ask me if they have any "feel" or not, it's a ridiculous question. They can play *anything*. In my experience, there is a direct relationship between the amount of training someone has had and the length and breadth of their musical career. So whatever you're extrapolating from this thread, I'd suggest it's a dangerous extrapolation for you to apply to your own life.

When your brand of stoner rock no longer pays the bills, assuming that it currently does, how will you build a bridge to doing something else in music that you find to be fulfilling? No need to give me an answer, but it's a question you'd be wise to ask of yourself.

Well said, Bill

 

[Russell L]

Well said, Bill

I agree.

Here's another plus to knowing at least some theory. It's really enjoyable to me to ride around in the truck listening to songs and KNOWING what it's all about. As a matter o' fact, it's how I learn most of the new tunes coming up in my bands. I don't necessarily have to play it to learn it. I know what it is by listening. (Well, except for the key. I don't have perfect pitch, so I can't qualify as a Bass Ninja, huh? LOL). Of course, part of that is good ear training, but I also know what to call it, and how it works. Not always everything, but most of the things I hear.

Also, I have no problem with the number charts that have become more popular these days. They make sense since ya never know what key some singer will want the tune in.

 

[zachoff]

When your brand of stoner rock no longer pays the bills, assuming that it currently does, how will you build a bridge to doing something else in music that you find to be fulfilling?

EDIT: and pardon me, but this is fascinating for me - I don't intend this as any kind of attack, I'm just really fascinated - only playing your own music and no one else's "as a general rule" you may eventually find to be very limiting and boring. It's like saying you won't read any words except those you have written. How will you learn anything at all? Doesn't hearing other people's music just make you wish you could play it? How do you restrain yourself? I hear music, and while listening and being absorbed in the flow of sound, I'm also listening with my brain, understanding what the song is doing, appreciating the elegant simplicity or the elegant complexity of the arrangement, the interplay between melody and harmony and rhythm, the cleverness of what one player just did - in any style of music, and I listen to them all, except dance and club music. Listening to it (whatever it is) just makes me want to play it.

Music is a hobby for me... Always has been and always will be. I make a little money, but it basically pays for practice space rental & that's about it. Playing shows is fun and I'd do it (and have done it) for free. I've played in a lot of different bands. A punk band in high school, a ska band in the mid 90s, a metal band in the early 00s, a stoner rock band now, and a couple cover bands between the last two. I have played other people's music but the music the general public wants to hear at a bar and the music I like to play generally don't go hand in hand and I ended up playing music I didn't like & therefore ended up not enjoying playing music or being in the band. I did teach myself the opening riff to High on Fire - Baghdad a while back & that was neat but I've now forgotten it.

Whether or not I learn other people's music is really more an issue of time I have to give to music & the fact that writing takes up most of that time. I still listen to a ton of music, see a ton of shows, and most of the music I buy is newer music. Listening to good music makes me want to listen to it more & I guess doesn't make me want to learn to play it. Maybe use the sound or the meter or the structure as an influence for something that I'll write but no... I've never really had the urge to learn songs I like. Not since I was 16, anyway.

I honestly don't know what's going to happen "when I get old" (as if 35 isn't old in the world of music, anyway)... Could be I stay in this band for a long time and our style changes to match what we like in metal or punk rock. If punk rock and metal completely go away then we'll probably play dirty blues or I'll join a country band. Could be I end up playing in a Nirvana tribute band (which I would actually really love to do), could be I write and record my own stuff. Who knows... Point is I'm not planning ahead. Like I said, it's a hobby.

I think the reason players stagnate has nothing to do with their level of theory knowledge and everything to do with finding nothing new to love in the world of music & that's a bummer for them.

 

[Calebmundy]

Seems like a lot of the theory-based folks in this thread play other people's music & the non-theory folks don't. It's true in my case (I don't play other people's music as a general rule) and from what I've seen it's true in the last few posts with the Steelers Wheel tune & learning 18th century classical & playing covers, anyway.

All of what I said applies DOUBLE when making original music. I'm in an indie rock band that I think is pretty damn rock n roll (http://statesidemenace.bandcamp.com if I can plug for a second), and I play for some VERY original artists. Whenever a new player moves into one of those situations, I almost always become the guy who explains what's going on. I often think that is a big part of why the groups I play in can nail a show after one rehearsal instead of the weeks of rehearsal I sometimes read about here.

Not putting down original music players who don't know as much theory as I do at all either. A lot of the artists themselves have little idea what they are writing in theory-terms, but it's still great stuff.

 

[dvh]

I think the reason players stagnate has nothing to do with their level of theory knowledge and everything to do with finding nothing new to love in the world of music & that's a bummer for them.

Or, they're just wanna-be's....

 

[Calebmundy]

Just to re-emphasize. Lots of artists and bands I love make great music with probably no knowledge of theory at all. My friend Mike can barely play guitar, but sits around for hours trying sounds until he comes up with some truly amazing songs for instance, and I don't hold that against anyone.

My friends who are well-trained composers who write songs with changes borrowed from jazz or whatever also do it for the same reasons that someone without training does-because of the sound.

When my friend Seth who can write and sing like he's captured a muse, and regularly gets paid a lot of money to play any of four instruments all over the country says he loves a dominant three chord, he doesn't love it for the shape it makes on the paper, he loves it for the same reason the guy who says "that weird B-chord in that song that starts on the G-chord" does-because they both experimented and found a sound they liked. Seth can just tell me about it, or write it down so I don't have to figure out what he means.

 

[ghiadub]

I do not think about theory when I play music, I think about it when I listen to music, but I listen when I play so....... it's cyclic!

 

[Mayers]

I think that if you don't know theory you will always be limited and so playing always the same thing because it is all you know.

I also think that since electric guitar and bass came out, the quality of music took a huge drop. Because every body take a guitar or bass without any studies so they make simplier stuff.

But I also know that many classical musician didn't know theory but their music is still played today ... like Bach and Chopin. But at their time, every day music was more complex and rich than today music will ever be...

 

[zachoff]

I think that if you don't know theory you will always be limited and so playing always the same thing because it is all you know.

I think this is patently false.

 

[Munjibunga]

Wrong notes with good feel are wrong notes.

I call them jazz notes.

 

[Munjibunga]

I think that if you don't know theory you will always be limited and so playing always the same thing because it is all you know.

I also think that since electric guitar and bass came out, the quality of music took a huge drop. Because every body take a guitar or bass without any studies so they make simplier stuff.

But I also know that many classical musician didn't know theory but their music is still played today ... like Bach and Chopin. But at their time, every day music was more complex and rich than today music will ever be...

You need to listen to more jazz. There are many phenomenal players in the genre.

Also, no plurals or possessives, or is the "s" key not working?

 

[MtManiac]

I think that if you don't know theory you will always be limited and so playing always the same thing because it is all you know.

I also think that since electric guitar and bass came out, the quality of music took a huge drop. Because every body take a guitar or bass without any studies so they make simplier stuff.

But I also know that many classical musician didn't know theory but their music is still played today ... like Bach and Chopin. But at their time, every day music was more complex and rich than today music will ever be...

Quality of music took a huge drop? From what? Simplicity and complexity do not relate to quality, and I would argue that more people enjoy more music more now than at any other point in history, largely because of rock and roll and rhythm and blues, none of which we would have without the electric guitar or more to the point the electric bass guitar. And there are way more aspiring musicians, learned or otherwise, now than ever.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

But I also know that many classical musician didn't know theory but their music is still played today ... like Bach and Chopin.

Trust me, Bach knew theory, and deeply.

 

[Shanannigan]

Seems like a lot of the theory-based folks in this thread play other people's music & the non-theory folks don't. It's true in my case (I don't play other people's music as a general rule) and from what I've seen it's true in the last few posts with the Steelers Wheel tune & learning 18th century classical & playing covers, anyway.

That's fine if music doesn't pay your bills. Otherwise you generally don't make much money playing your own music. Personally, I have money bands (others music, covers), and creative bands (original). I enjoy both for different reasons, but mainly overlapping reasons. There's no reason that a musician shouldn't enjoy playing other's music.