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Theory vs. Feel
- Thread starter progmanjum
- Start date
It may have been said already, but from my perspective relative to the OP's original question he's implying that as one learns more theory they become more mechanical and, thus, play less from feel. They progress from what they think simply sounds good to what is "supposed" to be played because their current key/mode/whatever tells them that's the note they should play. There are a lot of people out there who know tons of theory and write nothing but boring drivel... Tons, really.
Anyway, it doesn't really matter to me. I'm doing fine in my land of blissful ignorance.
Anyway, it doesn't really matter to me. I'm doing fine in my land of blissful ignorance.
It may have been said already, but from my perspective relative to the OP's original question he's implying that as one learns more theory they become more mechanical and, thus, play less from feel. They progress from what they think simply sounds good to what is "supposed" to be played because their current key/mode/whatever tells them that's the note they should play. There are a lot of people out there who know tons of theory and write nothing but boring drivel... Tons, really.
Anyway, it doesn't really matter to me. I'm doing fine in my land of blissful ignorance.
Perhaps true but how many "feel only" players might make genius musical magic if they understood theory also? We'll never know.
So, you're saying if they didn't know any theory they could/would still write that stuff? I'd probably disagree w/ that as well.
Anyone can write music you or I dislike, regardless of knowledge.
Unless I misinterpreted, you argue that the quality of the music one can produce is necessarily diminished (no pun intended) by learning theory.
In general, I find this not to be true, with the following exception: When some start learning theory, they want to put the concepts into practice,
and some begin writing music that explores the concepts, but this is a result of confusing complexity for quality.
It's this misuse of theory that that I think you are responding to, which I am encouraging you not to confuse with simply knowing theory.
Theory and musical quality are apples and oranges. Arguing that "knowing theory " = "you will write boring drivel" is simply not accurate IMHO.
That has not been my experience in 30+ years of playing. In fact, some of the best feel players I know are also among the most educated guys from a theory perspective.
Nah, I gotcha. One can avoid misuse of theory by simply not knowing it though.
Totally kidding but really, without theory we wouldn't have the Malmsteens of the world... For better or worse.Originally, I stated that knowing theory makes you more mechanical and less from the hip, if you will... And I still think that's generally true. I've been in bands with theory heads and people that can't even name the notes on the fretboard. Having to explicitly show someone how to play something is a lot less annoying than being told something that "sounds" good can't be played that way because it doesn't fit w/ theory.
To go along with the car/driving example from earlier... You might know a city so well that you know exactly how to get from point a to point b and which roads are busy at which times and which streets have fewer stop lights and stop signs and you'll get there... Quickly and efficiently.
Someone else who doesn't know the city all that well might take a wrong turn and find something awesome that you'd have never found in your point a to point b mechanical mentality. Then again... More often than not they'll get lost and end up getting shot in an alley.
Nah, I gotcha. One can avoid misuse of theory by simply not knowing it though.
Originally, I stated that knowing theory makes you more mechanical and less from the hip, if you will... And I still think that's generally true. I've been in bands with theory heads and people that can't even name the notes on the fretboard. Having to explicitly show someone how to play something is a lot less annoying than being told something that "sounds" good can't be played that way because it doesn't fit w/ theory.
To go along with the car/driving example from earlier... You might know a city so well that you know exactly how to get from point a to point b and which roads are busy at which times and which streets have fewer stop lights and stop signs and you'll get there... Quickly and efficiently.
Someone else who doesn't know the city all that well might take a wrong turn and find something awesome that you'd have never found in your point a to point b mechanical mentality. Then again... More often than not they'll get lost and end up getting shot in an alley.
In my experience playing with technical players who are ignorant to theory, I find them much more "mechanical" than those who do. Regardless of if you know theory or not, you're brain is actively planning/executing lines when you play. The person ignorant to theory, when it comes to technical lines is very restricted, generally adapting to a "this finger goes here, than this finger goes here" type approach. While the person who knows theory, can analyze the lines, understand the rhythm, the harmony, the melody, and as a result can embellish them.
Understanding theory, when it comes to technical music, makes it much less like learning dance steps, and it makes it more like playing music. It's like communicating in English, without understanding grammar. It's possible, many do it. Yet understanding grammar just helps you convey your intended meaning more efficiently. It heightens your intuition in conversation, it allows you pick up on subtleties (especially with humor).
I think most people to go through a period, when learning theory, where they restrict themselves with it. As you point out, some people will complain about something not fitting with theory. However that doesn't really make sense, and speaks more for their still small knowledge of theory. Theory isn't a rule book, music doesn't fit to theory. Theory is simply a streamlined method for understanding music. There are no rights or wrongs for what tones can go together. People who you have encountered with that attitude are misinformed.
Feel..is why I play in a cover band
Theory... Since I can't read music and do not know any theory, is why I will always play in a cover band
I am happy with where I am at musically, too busy now a days with work and kids too get serious with it. Wish I got into music when I was young and had time to learn properly.
Theory... Since I can't read music and do not know any theory, is why I will always play in a cover band
I am happy with where I am at musically, too busy now a days with work and kids too get serious with it. Wish I got into music when I was young and had time to learn properly.
There are also a lot of people out there who don't know tons of theory and write nothing but boring drivel... Tons, really.
Calebmundy
Supporting Member
- Apr 5, 2007
- 1,134
- 817
- Disclosures
- Endorsing Artist: DNA Amplifiers, Lākland Basses
I have a music degree from a university, so I do know a lot of that stuff. However, the two most important things I've found in Nashville aside from personality and attitude-type thing is learning tunes quickly and correctly, and playing with feel and confidence. Lots of pros here don't know a deep level of theory, and a lot do.
I will say that the more theory you know, the easier it is to verbally communicate about music. I always prefer the best players I can get who went to Belmont, because we speak the same language. My least favorite players to work with are those with no knowledge of theory or ability to read charts etc, because we're probably going to waste a lot of time discussing and figuring out something that would normally only take the amount of time it takes me to glance at a chart, or say "The last bar of the second phrase of the chorus is a 2/4 bar and it's six MAJOR."
I will say that the more theory you know, the easier it is to verbally communicate about music. I always prefer the best players I can get who went to Belmont, because we speak the same language. My least favorite players to work with are those with no knowledge of theory or ability to read charts etc, because we're probably going to waste a lot of time discussing and figuring out something that would normally only take the amount of time it takes me to glance at a chart, or say "The last bar of the second phrase of the chorus is a 2/4 bar and it's six MAJOR."
The common language point is one I was making earlier. I played with a group of guys, none of whom had any musical training whatsoever but we were all aged 35+ adults who'd been playing since we were teenagers. I remember we were playing "Stuck In The Middle," and I was trying to tell the guitar player how the rhythm part works - "It's just the D7 chord on the 2 and the 'and' of three." Blank looks. Finally after me singing it while clapping the beat and then demonstrating on my bass repeatedly while he strummed along, he got it - the whole feel of that song very much depends on that very simple guitar part. Many other examples, like when we were playing a fast tempo 4/4 tune with the bass playing root-fifth on beats 1 & 3 - simple - trying to get my drummer to understand that he had to play it not with a half-note feel, I had to demonstrate where the beats actually were. He didn't believe me, he said it sounded too fast.
We eventually got a guitar player who had a degree in Music - he was unfamiliar with the Steeler's Wheel tune, but I told him how to play it - first time out of the gate, he had it down, never listened to the original. It's not complicated, really, but what an absolute joy for me to be able to tell someone an idea and they just do it, and only from what I've told them. (He was on his own for the slide solo).
Imagine asking a mechanic to change the oil in your car versus showing them how repeatedly after explaining why it needs to be changed. Same kind of thing.
We eventually got a guitar player who had a degree in Music - he was unfamiliar with the Steeler's Wheel tune, but I told him how to play it - first time out of the gate, he had it down, never listened to the original. It's not complicated, really, but what an absolute joy for me to be able to tell someone an idea and they just do it, and only from what I've told them. (He was on his own for the slide solo).
Imagine asking a mechanic to change the oil in your car versus showing them how repeatedly after explaining why it needs to be changed. Same kind of thing.
So-called "feel" players (as defined by this thread) are the bane of my existence. *Everyone* needs feel, of course, you can't be musical without it. But playing without learning music to me is like stumbling through a dark room, finding the furniture "by feel" rather than just turning on the damned light.
A feel player is *really* someone like Eric Clapton, who plays with a lot of feel, versus someone with a lot of "guitar school technique" - a lot of standard licks and techniques over and over again and every solo sounds like a blinding flurry of wheedly-wheedlies.
A feel player is *really* someone like Eric Clapton, who plays with a lot of feel, versus someone with a lot of "guitar school technique" - a lot of standard licks and techniques over and over again and every solo sounds like a blinding flurry of wheedly-wheedlies.
I would consider myself in the 3-5 range with theory out of 10. Many times I know more than the people I am playing with and many times I know less. I know more than enough to get by.
I would consider myself 7-9 on the feel/ear aspect of music, which in turn has more prominence on my playing than theory. Perhaps this spawns from spending my early years going to Chicago blues clubs and just listening to music a lot before picking up the bass???? I find I generally use theory to communicate about music or get a feel for a song when I first encounter a tune. Once I "understand" where the tune is going it becomes feel.
Anyway, to say that more theory learned will lead to more rigid playing.....if that is true for a musician then they didn't have much feel to begin with. We should always strive to know more.
At the same time, feel is requisite and theory is not simply for the fact that without any feel music will sound terrible (we have all heard this before) whereas there has been a lot of real cool music made by people with little or no theoretical knowledge....delta blues guitarists!
So, to conclude, if you want to be a great player have both.!!!!
I would consider myself 7-9 on the feel/ear aspect of music, which in turn has more prominence on my playing than theory. Perhaps this spawns from spending my early years going to Chicago blues clubs and just listening to music a lot before picking up the bass???? I find I generally use theory to communicate about music or get a feel for a song when I first encounter a tune. Once I "understand" where the tune is going it becomes feel.
Anyway, to say that more theory learned will lead to more rigid playing.....if that is true for a musician then they didn't have much feel to begin with. We should always strive to know more.
At the same time, feel is requisite and theory is not simply for the fact that without any feel music will sound terrible (we have all heard this before) whereas there has been a lot of real cool music made by people with little or no theoretical knowledge....delta blues guitarists!
So, to conclude, if you want to be a great player have both.!!!!
Again, the comparison is moot. Just because you know theory, it takes nothing away from feel. Just like how reading and writing take nothing away from speech. Or how mixing paint takes nothing away from the visual appreciation of a painting. The two really aren't the same thing.
As to rules, actually there are rules. To wit, here's a scenario when I was in college (theory class):
Prof: "You must not use parallel 4ths and 5ths."
Me: [raises hand, prof allows] "Sure you can, I do it all the time."
Prof: "Mr. Lowery, if you wish your music to sound like 18th century classical, you will NOT use parallel 4ths and 5ths."
Me: [sinking below desk top] "Uh...ok, I see what you mean."
Point is, different styles have different things about them that make them sound the way they do. AND, in fact, unless you DO KNOW theory, you will not be able to reproduce some of those styles if they are something from times past when there were absolute strict rules for writing (such as in many classical works). PLUS, when you DO KNOW theory you will also be able to understand other styles that were not written by hard rules (like Delta blues).
So, how do you play Delta blues anyway? If you know NO theory, you can listen and try to get it close to what you think is going on. If you DO KNOW theory you will take the listening further by recognizing just exactly WHAT is going on, and then you will KNOW. It will even help with the feeling to have a greater understanding like that.
I get mad when I hear someone put down knowing theory (I don't mean that that is what's going on here in this thread, it's not). I also get mad when I hear someone boast about how they don't know theory, as if that's something to be proud of. And then, I get flaming mad if I ever hear anyone boast about how they do know theory, as if that is also something to be proud of.
Theory is just knowledge. If you don't know it, that's fine. But, I don't know why any musician wouldn't want to know it.
As to rules, actually there are rules. To wit, here's a scenario when I was in college (theory class):
Prof: "You must not use parallel 4ths and 5ths."
Me: [raises hand, prof allows] "Sure you can, I do it all the time."
Prof: "Mr. Lowery, if you wish your music to sound like 18th century classical, you will NOT use parallel 4ths and 5ths."
Me: [sinking below desk top] "Uh...ok, I see what you mean."
Point is, different styles have different things about them that make them sound the way they do. AND, in fact, unless you DO KNOW theory, you will not be able to reproduce some of those styles if they are something from times past when there were absolute strict rules for writing (such as in many classical works). PLUS, when you DO KNOW theory you will also be able to understand other styles that were not written by hard rules (like Delta blues).
So, how do you play Delta blues anyway? If you know NO theory, you can listen and try to get it close to what you think is going on. If you DO KNOW theory you will take the listening further by recognizing just exactly WHAT is going on, and then you will KNOW. It will even help with the feeling to have a greater understanding like that.
I get mad when I hear someone put down knowing theory (I don't mean that that is what's going on here in this thread, it's not). I also get mad when I hear someone boast about how they don't know theory, as if that's something to be proud of. And then, I get flaming mad if I ever hear anyone boast about how they do know theory, as if that is also something to be proud of.
Theory is just knowledge. If you don't know it, that's fine. But, I don't know why any musician wouldn't want to know it.
