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Theory vs. Feel

#101
The BAD: I have been playing for more than 30 years and cannot read music. I do not understand theory at all and am terrible at improvising. I usually need time to work things out. I have tried to learn to read music and just don't get it. I graduated from UMASS, Suma Cum Laude and am a member of the international honor society. I am also in the process of pursuing an Executive MBA and a Master's in Finance at Boston University so my inability to read music has nothing to do with a lack of intelligence. Maybe it's the fact that I have always been able to get the gig because of my ability to play by ear and learn quickly so I never really applied myself when it comes to learning to read.

The good: I can learn anything by ear in a very short period of time. Several years ago, I was auditioning for an original blues band. The leader gave me cds containing about 30 songs. He asked me to learn 3 or 4 songs and show up for the audition 2 days later. When I arrived at the audition, he asked me what songs I had learned. I said all of them. He didn't believe me and started randomly picking out songs to test me. He was shocked that I could play all of them. I got the gig. The keyboard player in that same band has degrees from 3 different music colleges including Berklee. He told me that I was one of the best bassists he had ever played with. He and I do a lot of recording together and we started a music production company. We are in the process of starting a record label. He once said to me "If you could read music, you would be deadly and could play with anybody". He always says that he cannot understand how I can play as well as I do and learn as quickly as I do without understanding theory. He has tried to teach me and I just don't get it. I wish I could.

I played with a drummer who was trained at Berklee and understood theory. Whenever we were working on songs, he would write drum charts to use to follow along. He would hang a clipboard on the side of my amp and refer to it during the set. The problem was that he had no feel at all. If we deviated from the way he learned the song he would get lost. If the lead guitarist shortened or extended a solo, the drummer had no idea what to do because we were not following his charts. Given the choice, I will take a feel player over a theory player but ideally, I would like to have someone who can do both.
 
#104
I think the best analogy is that theory is the written language of music. Can you speak English with perfect grammar and structure without actually knowing how to spell a word or what a predicate is? Sure, but it's usually easier to do so if you know the grammatical rules. Just as the rules explain the language, the theory explains the music.

Feel, in my opinion, is the amount of emotion you put into what you're playing- how much you care about what you're playing. Going with the language analogy, someone who is all theory and no feel would be a speaker who doesn't care all too much about what is being said. It's grammatically correct, but the listener doesn't care because the speaker doesn't either.

Both are important to making good music. If you have no idea what you're doing, it'll be confusing to the listener no matter how into it you are; and even if you do know what's going on, you still need to care about what you're playing.
 
#105
lunarpollen said:
You probably do know what a diminished 7th is, you just don't know that that's the common name for it!

I think ear and feel are most important, followed by formal theory. A lot of theory just serves to label, explain, and expand upon what you may already be aware of, feelwise.
Click to expand...

this is precisely what i discovered when everyone started pressuring me to learn theory and so i gave in and started learning some theory.

now, i'm not discounting theory at all.. i would love to get more into it but i dont have the time or the drive at this point to worry about it
 
#106
My take on feel/groove vs. everything else

People occasionally post threads/polls about <something> verus feel/groove
Chops vs feel...Technique vs feel....Theory vs groove...

But here's the thing: It's a false choice, between elements that are categorically exclusive.
When you break down what the terms are, "Feel" or "groove" or "mojo" etc are non-technical,
vague terms that essentially boil down to "playing well"
They are a percieved quality arising form multiple elements: a sum of parts.
You can't teach "feel" or "groove" specifically because it doesn't exist as a discreet discipline.

Chops, technique, theory, accurate tempo, rhythm subdivisions... etc these are the parts, which you can teach
groove/feel is a result of mastering these parts to the degree that they don't inetrfere with your ability play what's inside your head/heart.

Groove/feel can't exist without the other stuff.
 
#107
This "choice" is nonsense. Musical knowledge opens up creativity while ignorance boxes one in. I am constantly amazed at how people can be "totally into" music but won't bother to learn much of anything about it.

Actually, I think it is really ego driven. Some people want to come across as proudly self taught or inspired, but I bet in many of those cases, the musician is just afraid to admit what they don't know.
 
#108
I have a degree in theory. I can read. I can write.

But, I did it right, from the beginning. I taught myself to play first without knowing a thing. From age three I was on the piano, discovering what music was like to play. By age 8 I could pick out any song I heard. At age 13 I taught myself guitar. I didn't know anything about theory, but I knew what it meant to feel what I played. By 15 I was studying theory, to give names and understanding to all this wonderful feeling stuff I'd been doing all my life. It didn't take a thing away from the feeling, nor did the feeling override the theory. Both went together. Actually, my music just went right along as always, only then I could write it down, I could discuss it with others who knew theory, and I could play with anyone. There was no fear as long as there was a chart or sheet music. But then, I could also still just play along with nothing because my ear was trained so well from always playing. To this day I learn songs for gigs while riding in my truck. I can go to the gig and play a never before played song, all because of knowing theory and training my ear.

Well, that's just me. It's not a matter of one as opposed to the other. Music is all about feeling. Theory is just all about telling you what's what about the music. It is the greatest tool any musicain can have. Anyone can benefit from learning theory. You don't have to know it all, just the basics of harmony and rhythm. Yet, I've played with many, many pros who don't know a word of it. They're great players, but it's difficult for us to share ideas, lacking a common language.
 
#109
This thread reminds me of this documentary I saw about Chuck Berry. In it Mr. Berry and Keith Richards are rehearsing for a gig, and Keith just wasn't getting the "feel" of the opening riff. At this point, Chuck's pissed.

Not once did they mention any lick of theory. Like, oh you really have to slur that flat 5th of the E minor chord man, that's where it's at. Nope. Berry just kept looking at Richards repeating the riff.

Are any of these guys bad musicians?

Nope.

Playing by feel, is your own personal expression. Knowing theory certainly would help things move along quicker, but isn't necessary.

Then again, I'm almost torn about actually sitting down and learning theory. Some of the best music, IMO, was created by people who never learned theory, and some of the most boring music I've ever heard, IMO, was written by music theory graduates. :hiding:

I'll admit it, I really do not enjoy Dream Theater. I have tons of respect for them as musicians, but in all seriousness, I wouldn't go to a Dream Theater concert if someone gave me free tickets. Musically, they bore me. :spit:

I've been invited to join, fill in, and help write music by other bands because they like my style and approach. Sure, these weren't professional gigs, as I'm hardly a professional, but being appreciated for my musical voice, is pretty friggin awesome.
 
#111
Often, those who do not know theory are the ones who say it is not necessary, playing it down. Interestingly, those who do know theory will also say that it is not necessary. But, they also know the many benefits gleaned from studying theory.

And yes, much great music has been written by both those who know theory and those who don't. Personally, I don't know why any player wouldn't want to know it. The benefits are huge.
 
#113
I'm with those who don't get the debate in the first place...

Theory and feel are two completely different things, like breathing and thinking. Which of those two would you rather do? You need both! I just do not get the question... :rollno:

The real question that I believe is being asked is whether one needs theory, or can one just get by with having no formal structure to their musical knowledge.

Well, of course one can get by with no formal structure. It's music, it is independent of rationale and reason... theory is there to explain what other people have done, and why it is musical. Music is still music whether it is being made by someone who rationally knows why they're doing what they're doing or not. Just as noise is noise, regardless of who is making it.

However - why would you want to limit yourself, *if* you have a choice in the matter? I understand that some people just feel they cannot learn theory, and because of factors such as age, curiosity, commitment, etc choose to, or choose not to. I myself have forgotten more than I currently know, and what I currently know usually works for me, which is why the rest has been forgotten. It's been years since I have needed to read notation, but I used to be as fluent a reader of music as I am a reader of English. But I am not a pro - good luck getting session work without reading. If you want to be "pro" - i.e. making a living at music, you *need* to know how to read and you *need* to know as much theory as you can, if for nothing else than being able to communicate ideas with other professionals. The alternative is to get really lucky - or starve until you decide to do something else.

We all know 2+2=4, and like a lot about music, this is self evident - as is gravity and the physics involved with playing pool. However - if you want to build rocketships or understand the universe, you need to know a lot more math than that, and you need to be able to talk about it and understand what other people have done. Just like music theory.
 
#115
Further to my last post, for example:

Imagine you know very little theory, maybe you barely know the names of the notes on your instrument, but you know what an "A minor chord" looks like. Let's say you have a song with the chords A, E, B, G and C. Let's say the first chord is an "A minor chord." Let's say you're about to play it with someone else, and they want to know what key it is in. What do you tell them?

Especially for bass players... geez... how do you remember songs, by remembering that you need to play at the 5th fret top string until the singer "does this," and then move to the 7th fret, next string down, until the drummer "does that?"
 
#116
I'm loving this thread so far. I feel it is very important for up-and-coming bassists such as myself to know this stuff, because, indeed, sometimes theory can be so overwhelming it feels like it "boxes" one in.

But I have to agree that, in my short experience, knowing some scales and chord tones has helped me play beyond root notes (which is not bad, but gets boring fast). I think I have some natural feel to playing bass (I've been complimented on my playing by a couple random laypeople twice, so that may count for something), but knowing chord structures, and the fretboard, has helped me develop faster than I would just by "figuring things out" with feel. I see theory as a shortcut to things one may learn or discover by feel.

By the way, to some experienced bassists/ posters, don't be so harsh on the OP! If he's asking is because he's interested in learning this (otherwise he would have discarded theory and never asked this question in the first place). And this also helps those of us who don't have enough experience to figure it out, or who are going through the same predicament. Or would you say to a kid who's barely learning how to walk or talk that he or she should know better, and that his/her question is "silly" or you "don't get the question" because you "know better"? Come on. Not everyone in this forum is a music expert, you know.
 
#117
It is important for those of us who know something to not sound haughty about it, that's true. To those who do not know a thing about music theory, I'll just say, there is nothing wrong with that, but also that there is a wonderful world of understanding to be found by learning the very basics. It really is NOT hard to understand, with the right instruction, of course.

Most bands I have been in have ever had only one or two folks who knew any theory. In one that I just joined I told the guys that I do know theory and that I might have a comment once in awhile about something to help us all play our best, but that just because I know something does not mean that I am boasting about it, nor will I be wearing it on my chest like a medal. One guy I've played with for years has thanked me for helping him understand a few things over time. He sees the benefit of knowing a few things at least.

I don't feel like an expert, and I'm not. I just know what is what about harmony and rhythm, that's all. And it has all been by my own choice to learn it. I just took interest in it. But again, I'll say that if you don't know any theory, please give it a try. You will be amazed at how much more interesting your playing will get. Believe me.

And if you don't, hey, that's cool, too.
 
#118
I think the "vs." in the original question is the whole problem. Pitting one against the other is pointless. Both are beneficial to being a better musician and ..... can you handle the truth? ..... they support each other! :D

That being said, I understand feel is important. I do. However, there are a surprising number of people who post in these threads (the topic is as comon as rosewood vs. maple ... :rolleyes:) and throw out arguments like theory is limiting, theory stifles creativity, theory is just someone else's rules that the "elitist" want to shove down your throat, is a way for "the man" to control you and your music, etc., etc., etc. I can't think of any other word for those arguments besides "stupid". They are. They're just plain stupid.

Keep in mind that I'm not saying that bassists who don't know any theory are stupid. What I am saying is that those kinds of arguments are stupid. If you want to remain ignorant, well, that's your choice. Feel free. But ultimately the joke is on those who take pride in their ignorance. The music they make that just sounds good and just rocks, well ..... it's LOADED with theory and THAT'S the reason is sounds good and rocks. You just don't know the rules that explain why it sounds good and rocks! ;)

Really, how can learning more about what you do POSSIBLY limit you?
 
#119
I started playing bass without teacher or music theory, now 15 years later, I'm starting learning theory because I realised that whenever I want to improvise, I blocked myself and don't improvise, or I will just add one extra note, because I don't know if I'm gonna end up on a wrong note or not. I also listen to Tal wilkenfield and co and I want to be able to do a solo with my eyes shut.
That's the only reason why I want to learn music theory. At least the basics.

I'm in a rock band right now so bass solos are not important but I want to be able to do them and to show off lol :)

I've also played with a backing band, all the members knew music theory( went to music school etc...) perfectly and I was the only one who didn't know, I felt actually dumb but then I noticed that they would get lost if something changed and I didn't.
Obviously, it's important to know music theory if you want to be a professional musician or when everyone else in your band know music theory to understand what they re saying.

So I would say both but if you know at least the basics, you should be fine..(unless you want to play jazz but that's another story...)
 
#120
all you need is the chromatic scale people... theory is simple..

feel is definetly much harder to learn....

Feel cannot be taught it has to be experienced from life.

Its like when i hear a guitar solo from someone who just beat a heroin addiction versus a guy straight outta berklee who lacks the emotion in this playing... IDK...

I agree though why not learn both?
 

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