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Theory vs. Feel
- Thread starter progmanjum
- Start date
I don't think the notion of people boxing themselves in with theory is necessarily wrong. I've played with lots of people who would get upset if you broke "rules", regardless of if it sounded good.
However, this is a distinct minority and seems most common amongst people who are self-taught and only have a very basic knowledge of theory. They end up falling into wild ideas like that an out-of-key note is simply wrong and can't be used.
I've had a lot of issues writing atonal music and then having people unable to function in that context because they CAN'T break their ears out of tonality.
Remember, there are also other schools of music theory, and I don't think there is any debate that learning some of the other schools of music, especially those that are very foreign to our own like those in the East, will be greatly beneficial. Learning some of the atonal methods will teach you a LOT.
To put it simply: I think that there is a boxing factor, depending on what you are trying to do, if you limit yourself to standard Western theory and refuse to acknowledge that all theory is suggestions/guidelines, not rules.
However, this is a distinct minority and seems most common amongst people who are self-taught and only have a very basic knowledge of theory. They end up falling into wild ideas like that an out-of-key note is simply wrong and can't be used.
I've had a lot of issues writing atonal music and then having people unable to function in that context because they CAN'T break their ears out of tonality.
Remember, there are also other schools of music theory, and I don't think there is any debate that learning some of the other schools of music, especially those that are very foreign to our own like those in the East, will be greatly beneficial. Learning some of the atonal methods will teach you a LOT.
To put it simply: I think that there is a boxing factor, depending on what you are trying to do, if you limit yourself to standard Western theory and refuse to acknowledge that all theory is suggestions/guidelines, not rules.
Yo, Ken!
Knowing stuff is always a good thing. And even though I think the song itself is as dry as yesterday's bread, as Eric Clapton said, "It's in the way that you use it".
Deluge of Sound - yeah, man. I know what you mean and I didn't mean to appear to be calling you out.
I am a semantics nit-picker. They way you phrased the idea highlights why some people think theory can do stuff - like make you play with less feel by exposing more musical rules and structures. We hear it all the time here - "If I learn theory, I'll lose my feel and become a music robot churning out 'theoretically correct' music instead of music that has feel. So that's why I won't worry about learning theory - because I think if I do, it will make me play badly."
I won't say that some people won't crack a theory book, think they've discovered the holy grail of 'how to be a killer player' and start using some of the stuff they learn inappropriately.
But if their musical ability is that tenuous, I have a feeling that anything could be held to blame for their less than stellar musical execution.
Theory does tend to box me in a little compared to when I didn't know anything at all, but the box is a lot bigger than it was before. Theory is never bad, it's your own fault if you don't use it right to be honest.
Agreed.
To be honest, if I studied theory, it would be strictly for intellectual interest, or maybe towards learning to compose and arrange. I can't imagine deciding on the fly what mode I should play for a particular set of changes, or how that would really help me.
No issues here, dude. This discussion is (hopefully) all for the common good, anyway.
I think the issue that NineSpine pointed out is a good topic of discussion, actually. Atonal music... where the "wrong" notes are the right ones!
In what ways?
It automatically tends to box me in because whatever I'm doing, all kinds of 'rules' pop into my head. Which is good, but too often I use them as actual rules instead of guidelines and my playing reflects that. Obviously it's my own fault that I'm not always using the theory correctly.
Theory expands your 'box' by a lot because you get so many ideas to play. There are plenty of default note choices and tons of color tones to choose from. Personally, I think it makes me want to play the 'correct' notes too often and I'm trying to learn how to use my ears instead of my analytical brain.
Theory expands your 'box' by a lot because you get so many ideas to play. There are plenty of default note choices and tons of color tones to choose from. Personally, I think it makes me want to play the 'correct' notes too often and I'm trying to learn how to use my ears instead of my analytical brain.
I know, Ken. I think the 'fog of web' may be confusing some of our posts' intent, but I didn't think you were disagreeing. I was agreeing with your agreement - and commenting on Deluge of Sound's post.
It's all good!
+1 I read right through the 'Deluge of Sound' reference!
Incorporating the Circle of Fifths into a song is like incorporating a page from the recipe book into a cupcake.
- Feb 8, 2005
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- Endorsing Artist: Bag End - Dean Markley - Thunderfunk
And that is being kind.
It's a prime example of what Wynton Marsalis called a "black code", and I see it a lot in this country:
Equating ignorance with soulfulness. Or as Jon Stewart put it "Extolling willful ignorance as some sort of folksy virtue." You see a lot of it in politics too.
This notion that knowing less is a good thing and makes who and what you're all about more "pure" somehow.
It's a crock. There is no shame in being ignorant about a given subject. However, to wear that as a badge of honor or to embrace the idea that if you know what the Hell you are doing is suddenly going to make what you do bad...?
No, it's just going to open your eyes to the fact you didn't know what you were doing.
A totally false dichotomy, and often a dangerous one, looking at the world these days.
+1 Marcus.
To be clear to the OP - It's important to know that a lot of people think the same way - that learning theory will somehow make them play more mechanically or with less 'soul' by exposing rules and structures.
As others have posted, as one starts the process of studying theory with a mind to apply it to their playing, frequently they do 'square up' some of the more 'soulful' edges that they used to have - even to the detriment of so-called, 'pure feel' - but that's the same with any new knowledge. You have to apply it a few times and sometimes make an odd-sounding choice or two before you see how it applies to you.
But that's where off-line practice and jamming with friends really pays off. The practice room is the perfect time and place to make all your mistakes - and I highly recommend you make 'em. Nothing both shows you exactly what really works well or even better, what NOT to do live than putting it out there in the safety of the practice zone.
That's another mindset I'd like to call attention to - the idea that every time you are playing you need to be perfect - even in a non-gig practice session with the band. In my project, we all push each other to try new things - apply theory - work out new techniques without fear of judgment in the lab. The way we approach things, you put it out there 200% in the lab, find out what works really well and what would be a huge mistake to do live - then when it comes to the live show, you pull out your 'perfect game' based on what you know works and (better) what you know doesn't work.
Practice = go for it - see how it flies or falls
Performance = do what works - save the heroics for the lab.
Obviously that's not to say all live/performance needs to be 100% hermetically sealed, safe - but that's not the place to be trying out your latest theory lesson.
To be clear to the OP - It's important to know that a lot of people think the same way - that learning theory will somehow make them play more mechanically or with less 'soul' by exposing rules and structures.
As others have posted, as one starts the process of studying theory with a mind to apply it to their playing, frequently they do 'square up' some of the more 'soulful' edges that they used to have - even to the detriment of so-called, 'pure feel' - but that's the same with any new knowledge. You have to apply it a few times and sometimes make an odd-sounding choice or two before you see how it applies to you.
But that's where off-line practice and jamming with friends really pays off. The practice room is the perfect time and place to make all your mistakes - and I highly recommend you make 'em. Nothing both shows you exactly what really works well or even better, what NOT to do live than putting it out there in the safety of the practice zone.
That's another mindset I'd like to call attention to - the idea that every time you are playing you need to be perfect - even in a non-gig practice session with the band. In my project, we all push each other to try new things - apply theory - work out new techniques without fear of judgment in the lab. The way we approach things, you put it out there 200% in the lab, find out what works really well and what would be a huge mistake to do live - then when it comes to the live show, you pull out your 'perfect game' based on what you know works and (better) what you know doesn't work.
Practice = go for it - see how it flies or falls
Performance = do what works - save the heroics for the lab.
Obviously that's not to say all live/performance needs to be 100% hermetically sealed, safe - but that's not the place to be trying out your latest theory lesson.
Technique vs. Theory vs. Feel is all too common a topic, yet it appears that we still need to cover it. This is not a shot at the OP in any way. It's just a learning curve every musician goes through (hopefully). The myth that it can only be feel or theory or technique, that these skills are mutually exclusive, is just simply wrong.
Without some knowledge of music theory how are you going to relate an idea to a fellow musician? "Um just play that part where we go from that one thingy to that other deal with that crazy drum part." Is that really how you want to operate? How about if you could say "lets go through that transition from the C Major 7 to the 7/4 latin grove over B minor 7." Granted people don't usually talk like that, but it does happen often enough.
On the flip side I have worked with people that are too focused on just the theory. I was working on a tune with a female singer when we were trying to figure out the chorus and the final chord in the progression ended up being a B and she asked how I figured that it should be a B since "mathmatically" it shouldn't work. I said to her to drop the algebra and just listen. Then she got it.
Oh and just for the record "I just go by feel" is the biggest cop out on learning how to play your instrument I've ever heard. IME "I just go by feel" does NOT mean that you have perfect timing or that you actually listen to what the band is doing. It is true that there are people who can go by feel, however that is usually after developing a strong skill set which includes technique and theory.
The single most useful skill you can ever develop for playing a musical instrument is not feel, music theory, or outstanding technique. It's listening. It's so simple but for some reason I would say the vast majority of players never learn this skill. Once you learn to listen to whats going on around you and play off of that, then you will have earned the title of musician, not just " ____ player".
Well that's my dos centavos
Without some knowledge of music theory how are you going to relate an idea to a fellow musician? "Um just play that part where we go from that one thingy to that other deal with that crazy drum part." Is that really how you want to operate? How about if you could say "lets go through that transition from the C Major 7 to the 7/4 latin grove over B minor 7." Granted people don't usually talk like that, but it does happen often enough.
On the flip side I have worked with people that are too focused on just the theory. I was working on a tune with a female singer when we were trying to figure out the chorus and the final chord in the progression ended up being a B and she asked how I figured that it should be a B since "mathmatically" it shouldn't work. I said to her to drop the algebra and just listen. Then she got it.
Oh and just for the record "I just go by feel" is the biggest cop out on learning how to play your instrument I've ever heard. IME "I just go by feel" does NOT mean that you have perfect timing or that you actually listen to what the band is doing. It is true that there are people who can go by feel, however that is usually after developing a strong skill set which includes technique and theory.
The single most useful skill you can ever develop for playing a musical instrument is not feel, music theory, or outstanding technique. It's listening. It's so simple but for some reason I would say the vast majority of players never learn this skill. Once you learn to listen to whats going on around you and play off of that, then you will have earned the title of musician, not just " ____ player".
Well that's my dos centavos
Why does anyone think they have good feel? Do they even know how to play a bass? What makes you think you can play a bass or have good feel without knowing anything about the instrument?
Do you strap it on upside down or backwards to play it? Why not? My guess is your copying what you saw someone else do. Thats why you don't lay it on the floor and strum it with your toes. If you know where the strap posts are and what they are used for, you are fooling yourself to think you haven't started studying theory.
Truth is, all the "I have feel" guys claim they are creative. Thats because they lack the knowledge of what has been done before and think they are the first to come up with it all.
In reality, they haven't come up with anything at all but spend there time mimicing there fav's and basicly doing the copy cat thing. There is nothing origional at all in this.
If you claim you play bass, you have started the process of learning all the various things about it. Thats theory. Theory ALWAYS comes before feel. Feel is what can be done with theory.
These are not two DIFFERENT aspects. they are linked so tightly you simply cannot have one without the other.
What can really box someone down is letting those not willing to do the work drag you into there rationalizations. Theory doesn't box anyone in, and anyone with it knows this. There are just lazy people who tell themselves what they want to hear and don't want you to have a higher set of standards than they do. They will argue all day to justify thier delusions. The want the cake and to eat it too so by calling mud cake they can decieve themselves into thinking they are eating cake all day. In the end they are just eating mud.
Sorry to come right out and say this but The guy with little or no theory doesn't have the qualifications to determine if it is harmful.
-eSmith.
Do you strap it on upside down or backwards to play it? Why not? My guess is your copying what you saw someone else do. Thats why you don't lay it on the floor and strum it with your toes. If you know where the strap posts are and what they are used for, you are fooling yourself to think you haven't started studying theory.
Truth is, all the "I have feel" guys claim they are creative. Thats because they lack the knowledge of what has been done before and think they are the first to come up with it all.
In reality, they haven't come up with anything at all but spend there time mimicing there fav's and basicly doing the copy cat thing. There is nothing origional at all in this.
If you claim you play bass, you have started the process of learning all the various things about it. Thats theory. Theory ALWAYS comes before feel. Feel is what can be done with theory.
These are not two DIFFERENT aspects. they are linked so tightly you simply cannot have one without the other.
What can really box someone down is letting those not willing to do the work drag you into there rationalizations. Theory doesn't box anyone in, and anyone with it knows this. There are just lazy people who tell themselves what they want to hear and don't want you to have a higher set of standards than they do. They will argue all day to justify thier delusions. The want the cake and to eat it too so by calling mud cake they can decieve themselves into thinking they are eating cake all day. In the end they are just eating mud.
Sorry to come right out and say this but The guy with little or no theory doesn't have the qualifications to determine if it is harmful.
-eSmith.
IMO, this is where knowledge of basic theory is most critical.
In the 'garage' world, the descriptive language used to describe basic musical constructs and concepts is as unique as the players. Everyone has their own interpretation of what a bar is, for example.
One way I work with my friends is to write out very simple blocks of changes:
| A . . . | D . . . | A . . . | A7. . .|
| D . . . | D7. . .| A . . . | A . . . |
| E . . . | D . . . | A . . . | E7 . . .|
etc...
One of my musical compatriots thought a bar was a set of measures on one line. Imagine what it was like to say, "Let's start in the third bar..." and he's starting on E while everyone else is starting on A...
Another instance of where 'street theory' vs. 'actual theory' has caused problems like when I asked the guitar player, "In this song we start on the IV, don't we?"
Our singer pipes up (all miffed) - "No! We start on 1 like always! You know, I count 1, 2, 3, 4 and then we start! Geez..."
"Uh, Shirley... He's talking about the IV chord..."
"Aren't chords like letter things?? He said 'the 4!' - when do we ever start that song on 4?!"
Guitar player to me;
"Tony - yes. It starts on the IV. OK, here we go 1, 2, 3, 4..."
*We start playing, starting on the IV chord on beat 1...*
"See!!! We started on 1 not on the 4 like I said!!!"
"Shut up, Shirley...Just sing..."
