The equation should work both ways then.
But good notes do not always = good feel.
Therefore good feel does not always = good notes.
I'm no rocket surgeon, though...
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Theory vs. Feel
- Thread starter progmanjum
- Start date
The equation should work both ways then.
But good notes do not always = good feel.
Therefore good feel does not always = good notes.
I'm no rocket surgeon, though...
If you don't want to learn theory, that's cool. But don't make it a 'versus' thing. If someone only scratches the surface of theory, then, yeah, applying it isn't going to sound very natural. It only becomes benificial when someone learns it so well that it becomes second nature and they don't have to 'think' on the bandstand. Some people give up too soon.
I'm there with you, had a friend show me how to play a couple of songs and I went at it myself from there. Nearly 14 years of playing later and I've just went back to college to do a gcse (highschool) equivalent in music concentrating on bass (obviously) got to admit that it was hard to put pride to one side but in honesty it is working out good for me and I'm glad to be playing outside of my comfort zone. It is also nice to realise that although I don't know the names for much I have been using the right stuff anyway.
Knowing theory only gets in the way in two cases. If you really learn theory, and LET that get in the way of the music. Or, if you learn just enough theory to be dangerous (like you learn to wiggle your fingers through four modes) and you think that's knowing theory.
The bottom line, which is most often repeated by people who know theory, is that they compliment each other. Learning the language of music won't hinder you unless you allow it to do so. Purposely NOT learning it because it might damage your feel seems to be only a cop-out. That's like saying Willie Dixon's lyrics would have been worse if he'd studied Yeats, Shakespeare, etc., which he may very well have.
John
The bottom line, which is most often repeated by people who know theory, is that they compliment each other. Learning the language of music won't hinder you unless you allow it to do so. Purposely NOT learning it because it might damage your feel seems to be only a cop-out. That's like saying Willie Dixon's lyrics would have been worse if he'd studied Yeats, Shakespeare, etc., which he may very well have.
John
Anyone that honestly believes that it's an either/or matter is fooling themselves. Just do both, you'll get more work. I don't see what's so difficult about that.
RedLeg
Supporting Member
implementing the theory I do know was/is my problem. I guess thats what practice and listening to lots of music is for!
Not that I'm the big expert on this, but to weigh in anyway:
Back at the beginning of the thread someone asked whether a chef needs lots of abstract knowledge of food or a great kitchen to work in. Here's the thing: lots of people with no training could go into a kitchen and start messing around. A lot of them will produce crap, a few of them will produce something halfway decent, and an elite minority with an instinct for cooking will produce something great.
Send the same people to culinary school. Once they're done, nearly all of them will get a decent meal made and a lot more of them will cook something really interesting or outright amazing. Furthermore, all of them will work out those recipes faster and more efficiently because they'll know ahead of time exactly what it is they're aiming for, rather than having to noodle around till they stumble into it.
I'd say theory's role is the same in music as in cooking. It helps you figure out what to do before you do it, tells you what probably won't work (before you learn that the hard way), and gives you ideas for things that would be amazing that you might take forever to figure out just experimenting. That doesn't mean that a person can't be halfway competent or even remarkably talented on sheer "feel" (and trial-and-error), but it makes for a much clearer path.
Back at the beginning of the thread someone asked whether a chef needs lots of abstract knowledge of food or a great kitchen to work in. Here's the thing: lots of people with no training could go into a kitchen and start messing around. A lot of them will produce crap, a few of them will produce something halfway decent, and an elite minority with an instinct for cooking will produce something great.
Send the same people to culinary school. Once they're done, nearly all of them will get a decent meal made and a lot more of them will cook something really interesting or outright amazing. Furthermore, all of them will work out those recipes faster and more efficiently because they'll know ahead of time exactly what it is they're aiming for, rather than having to noodle around till they stumble into it.
I'd say theory's role is the same in music as in cooking. It helps you figure out what to do before you do it, tells you what probably won't work (before you learn that the hard way), and gives you ideas for things that would be amazing that you might take forever to figure out just experimenting. That doesn't mean that a person can't be halfway competent or even remarkably talented on sheer "feel" (and trial-and-error), but it makes for a much clearer path.
Theory vs. Feel?
If you choose one over the other or both or neither - you're as right as you want to be. No one else can answer that for you. If you never pursue a theoretical understanding of music will you miss out? Well, you just won't know, will you?
If you choose one over the other or both or neither - you're as right as you want to be. No one else can answer that for you. If you never pursue a theoretical understanding of music will you miss out? Well, you just won't know, will you?
You're not following the analogy through to the logical conclusion.
If I present you with the best burger of your life, does it matter if I can break it down to you in terms of bitter, salty, sweet, and umami?
Conversely, if I present you with a wild fusion of Asian and Italian food styles and it isn't to your taste, what does it matter that I'm breaking new ground on the food fusion front?
The biggest "problem" with theory, IMO, is that it can box players into thinking a certain way about music. Now, that's the wrong application of the knowledge, but you can't deny that there are players who get sucked into that trap.
In the words of Duke Ellington, "if it sounds good, it is good." Make your food however you want.
That's not the problem with theory. Theory has no problem (I am sure you know) - but I just want to point out that the idea that theory "...can box players into thinking a certain way..." is what leads people like the OP to post questions re: theory vs. feel. Theory cannot do anything you don't want it to do - and learning more theory is not the same as opening up your musical inner child to corruption.
Theory is nothing more than an academic understanding of the science, math and grammar of music. "Feel" is how one interprets and expresses music artistically.
Theory vs. Feel is like saying blood vs. air. You don't have to be a doctor to breathe, right? Just because you cannot name the components of the respiratory system doesn't stop you from using it. Learning more about it won't suddenly make you breathe differently.
Theory cannot cause you do to anything you don't want to do - but the idea that gaining more music theory knowledge will somehow manipulate you as an artist or player is what makes people think there is value in NOT learning it or remaining "pure". As if however they see themselves to be as musicians can be 'tainted' by knowledge and suddenly they won't have good 'feel' anymore.
Silly, really.
Hey Tony!
Yeah... agree with what you are saying. There are wonderful technicians with very little 'feel' to their playing. And, there are some players who execute the technical stuff beautifully without having the 'schooled knowledge' to be able to put names to what they are doing.
However, the idea that your playing could ever be harmed by learning more about the mechanics of both the instrument and the music, as you say, is just plain silly.
The guys who say 'theory boxes you in' are always the ones who don't understand what the hell they are doing, and usually what they are doing is not very good. Most of the great 'natural' players I've met are always thirsting for more knowledge, not less.
Wrong notes with good feel are wrong notes.
tell that to bootsy the next time he plays a minor 3rd over a dominant chord...
tell that to bootsy the next time he plays a minor 3rd over a dominant chord...
Yeah, I guess the quotes and the bolding didn't do enough to elucidate my point.
What I'm trying to get at is not that there's an innate nature to learning music theory that taints creativity, but that a desire to "follow the rules" can result in a player stifling their own creativity to do so.
Of course, as I said before, that's a complete misuse of the knowledge gleaned through learning the theory, and should not be meant to imply that I'm not down with educating yourself. I'm a firm believer in the GI Joe method of thought--knowing is half the battle.
Of course, in this case the other half of the battle is feel...
Any increase in your knowledge of your instrument is a good thing. The players who get "boxed in" would have gotten boxed in anyway. There are plenty of BIT/GIT guy's who can play circles around me, but they can't write a memorable tune to save their lives.
That's what's great about music/art of any kind, there are an infinite amount of ways to approach it, and any of them that are appealing to the beholder are valid.
That's what's great about music/art of any kind, there are an infinite amount of ways to approach it, and any of them that are appealing to the beholder are valid.
"Theory vs. Feel" omits the other important element - Ear...
With good ear and great feel but minimal theory knowledge, you can still be a great player. Greater theory knowledge definitely can help, but without decent feel, you're playing will be mechanical, generic, and soulless, even if all the notes are technically correct.
A wrong note with good feel is still a wrong note, sure, but it doesn't necessarily take theory knowledge to know when note is wrong. With decent ear you can tell when a note is wrong. Theory is basically the mathematics and explanations behind WHY things sound the way they are, why a bad note sounds wrong, why certain chords and progressions sound weaker than others etc.
I think developing a good ear is probably the most important thing. Without it, the concepts of theory will remain just a bunch of words and technical jargon. A basic, minimum understanding of theoretical concepts is something everyone should have (i.e., take basic music compostion 101 at your local community college — even if you don't retain everything, you will retain enough for it to be a great help in understanding things like half-steps vs. whole steps in scales, creating chord progressions, etc.). With just a little bit of theory, a whole lot of good feel and good ear and take you far.
With good ear and great feel but minimal theory knowledge, you can still be a great player. Greater theory knowledge definitely can help, but without decent feel, you're playing will be mechanical, generic, and soulless, even if all the notes are technically correct.
A wrong note with good feel is still a wrong note, sure, but it doesn't necessarily take theory knowledge to know when note is wrong. With decent ear you can tell when a note is wrong. Theory is basically the mathematics and explanations behind WHY things sound the way they are, why a bad note sounds wrong, why certain chords and progressions sound weaker than others etc.
I think developing a good ear is probably the most important thing. Without it, the concepts of theory will remain just a bunch of words and technical jargon. A basic, minimum understanding of theoretical concepts is something everyone should have (i.e., take basic music compostion 101 at your local community college — even if you don't retain everything, you will retain enough for it to be a great help in understanding things like half-steps vs. whole steps in scales, creating chord progressions, etc.). With just a little bit of theory, a whole lot of good feel and good ear and take you far.
