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Theory vs. Feel
- Thread starter progmanjum
- Start date
cire113 said:
Unless the guy straight outta Berklee is a recovering heroin addict.
What people are referring to here as feel I understand as latent talent or drive. Theory is focus. Can't have a car without a steering wheel unless you're driving only on straight roads, and a steering wheel without a car is just, well, weird.
Some of my favourite bass lines make no sense on paper, but once you put it together it all works.
Remember that we are holding down the bottom, so what ever we play, has the ability to effectively change the chords being played by the rest of the band.
I've played with some people, that didn't understand that you can play different notes alongside a chord, and it can still compliment that chord, or even contrast with it, creating an interesting dynamic within the harmony.
now I'm no wiz at theory, but I'm not a scrub either. Some people that I've played with that have got exceptional musical knowledge, often find it more difficult to think outside the box. Now I emphasize some not all.
at the end of the day, if the notes sound, and feel right, then they can't be wrong. even if it's not written in one of those books that I keep on my piano.
I don't understand how theory can be 'versus' feel.
This makes no sense, they are separate things and one can not cancel out the other. Work on your feel, work on your theory, and both will get better. I find this idea that being technically proficient will make you less of a 'feel' player is quite odd.
Anyone who sees it this way is going to be seriously held back in either direction, in my opinion.
Amen. It's like asking "lungs taking in air vs heart beating?"... you need both, whether you recognize it or not.
Ya...Both for sure. I guess I fall into the category the OP was looking for meaning I make a living as a full time bass player. I am constantly looking to expand my musical knowledge because my 'feel' comes thru no matter how limited or expansive my knowledge is. If you want to be a full time working player, chances are the more knowledgeable you are, and the better your feel, the longer you will be able to sustain a fruitful career as a musician. And yes....I know what a diminished 7th is 
Theory has nothing to do with feel. That's like comparing the math involved in building the Eiffel Tower to the asthetic view of the finished product to the eyes. That is, theory does not vs. feel. Nor is either an alternative to the other. Theory is just what it is---the theory of what's going on in the music. You can know it and still play with feel, just as you can not know it and still play with feel.
I recommend knowing it, though. You will be happier understanding how music works. And yes, if you are a pro, you NEED to know some theory in order to work with others. It's "the language," man.
I recommend knowing it, though. You will be happier understanding how music works. And yes, if you are a pro, you NEED to know some theory in order to work with others. It's "the language," man.
i know nothing....chromatic scale. root, 5th,7th. thats about all i know but i find them very sufficient. ive tried learning all the fancy pants scales and modes and theyre of absolutely no use to me. and im still accoladed by my fellow bassists of my skill and creativity. they said they wished theyd taught themselves as i did... or me to teach them lol
Roy Vogt
Supporting Member
- Sep 20, 2000
- 4,433
- 537
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- Endorsing Artist: Kiesel Basses, Ampeg Amplification, Hotone Ampero II effects
Level of study-Masters Degree in Jazz Performance from the University of Miami. Undergrad in Music Theory (because UNT won't let you major in BG). More importantly, I never stop working on this-there's always something to learn.
Out of the 3 other musicians in my Big Rock Gig in the 80s, I was the only trained musician. I'm also the only one in the Music Business 24 years later. If you understand Music you can adapt, arrange, teach, produce, write methods and generally do whatever's necessary to sustain a career (as I've done for over 35 years).
Theory plus Street (Feel) will make you a Bass Ninja, IME.
Out of the 3 other musicians in my Big Rock Gig in the 80s, I was the only trained musician. I'm also the only one in the Music Business 24 years later. If you understand Music you can adapt, arrange, teach, produce, write methods and generally do whatever's necessary to sustain a career (as I've done for over 35 years).
Theory plus Street (Feel) will make you a Bass Ninja, IME.
Roy Vogt said:Level of study-Masters Degree in Jazz Performance from the University of Miami. Undergrad in Music Theory (because UNT won't let you major in BG). More importantly, I never stop working on this-there's always something to learn.
Out of the 3 other musicians in my Big Rock Gig in the 80s, I was the only trained musician. I'm also the only one in the Music Business 24 years later. If you understand Music you can adapt, arrange, teach, produce, write methods and generally do whatever's necessary to sustain a career (as I've done for over 35 years).
Theory plus Street (Feel) will make you a Bass Ninja, IME.
+1!!!!!!
Theory and feel together is a dangerous combo. And if you throw good reading chops on top you're a triple threat!
I went to Berklee for 2yrs, spent 20 yrs in NYC gigging and now at 43 I'm in Miami getting my butt kick by Nicky Orta who's IMO the greatest bass teacher ever. I live by what Roy said.
"Theory plus Street (Feel) will make you a Bass Ninja"
I don't know if I buy the "theory is essential to becoming a successful musicians argument". If that was the case I think there would a lot less successful bands and muscians around the world.
Now being able to read music is one area that did help me tremendously. I would always argue that is is very good to learn how to read.
Now learning why these things work and why these don't hasn't really helped me. It's much easier for me to "hear" why the work and why they don't. I guess it comes down to the way I learn. I'm a tactile learner and in the case of music an auditory learner. I also seem to have an innate ability for music.
That's not to ignore the possibility that over the years I may have internalized a lot more theory through playing with dozens and dozens of different musicians through simple experience, muscle memory and "ear" training. I probably have but I certainly haven't be consciously trying to learn the circle of fifths, or the relative minors of every scale.
Now being able to read music is one area that did help me tremendously. I would always argue that is is very good to learn how to read.
Now learning why these things work and why these don't hasn't really helped me. It's much easier for me to "hear" why the work and why they don't. I guess it comes down to the way I learn. I'm a tactile learner and in the case of music an auditory learner. I also seem to have an innate ability for music.
That's not to ignore the possibility that over the years I may have internalized a lot more theory through playing with dozens and dozens of different musicians through simple experience, muscle memory and "ear" training. I probably have but I certainly haven't be consciously trying to learn the circle of fifths, or the relative minors of every scale.
Level of study-Masters Degree in Jazz Performance from the University of Miami. Undergrad in Music Theory (because UNT won't let you major in BG). More importantly, I never stop working on this-there's always something to learn.
Out of the 3 other musicians in my Big Rock Gig in the 80s, I was the only trained musician. I'm also the only one in the Music Business 24 years later. If you understand Music you can adapt, arrange, teach, produce, write methods and generally do whatever's necessary to sustain a career (as I've done for over 35 years).
Theory plus Street (Feel) will make you a Bass Ninja, IME.
sounds about right to me.
you can not favor one over the other. you must have the feel for street music. you also must understand music. combining them makes you a musician rather than a hobbyist.
"Feel" seems to be more about technique to me, than actual note choice you would get from theory. The cooking analogy was good, but I kinda see it like creative writing.
A knowledge of spelling, grammar, and construction of narrative can be amazingly powerful tools to have in your arsenal as you write, but your knowledge of grammar doesn't do the writing for you. Some people can just write creatively without formal schooling, some people need a formula to go on and get the ball rolling. Schooling can help take a great writer and refine their present talent to make it even better, and theory is the same thing imo. There has to be application present though, because I can't just study theory for 4 years and sound like Michael Manring the second I pick up a bass for the first time.
A knowledge of spelling, grammar, and construction of narrative can be amazingly powerful tools to have in your arsenal as you write, but your knowledge of grammar doesn't do the writing for you. Some people can just write creatively without formal schooling, some people need a formula to go on and get the ball rolling. Schooling can help take a great writer and refine their present talent to make it even better, and theory is the same thing imo. There has to be application present though, because I can't just study theory for 4 years and sound like Michael Manring the second I pick up a bass for the first time.
But only because the other players are similarly playing the 'wrong notes'?
I'm reminded of an old saying: "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing". Or in other words, there is a point of knowledge whereupon an understanding is achieved. I suggest at that point the need to think about it is transcended.
Besides, if you know the difference between a minor and a major, something fundamental to anyone who plays music beyond just by memorizing lines, you are applying theory.
+100
you need to know theory very well so you understand the right way to go against these "rules." and first off, they arent rules! theyre guideliness to make things sound better. if you've ever played or looked at a chopin score, its filled with parallel 5ths. often he would play the exact same-voiced chord and move the whole thing up or down any given interval. someone with a little bit of theory knowledge will say "but parallel 5ths are the first thing you learn not to do." others who know more in depth theory will see why the way he does it works.
I still don't think of music in terms of right/wrong notes. I don't believe there is a "wrong" note. I use "wrong" notes quite often to add a jarring dissonance or focal point in a piece. I tend to think of the rhythm or feel first before note choice. As in a sound without pitch but rather simply a sound. I don't think I can explain my conceptualization rather well. I'm not a writer by trade but that's besides the point. But I will reiterate that I don't think there are "wrong" notes.
If you look above I editing my post to clarify and flesh out my feelings on the subject. Here is my edited post below. Ha!
I don't know if I buy the "theory is essential to becoming a successful musicians argument". If that was the case I think there would a lot less successful bands and muscians around the world.
Now being able to read music is one area that did help me tremendously. I would always argue that is is very good to learn how to read.
Now learning why these things work and why these don't hasn't really helped me. It's much easier for me to "hear" why the work and why they don't. I guess it comes down to the way I learn. I'm a tactile learner and in the case of music an auditory learner. I also seem to have an innate ability for music.
That's not to ignore the possibility that over the years I may have internalized a lot more theory through playing with dozens and dozens of different musicians through simple experience, muscle memory and "ear" training. I probably have but I certainly haven't be consciously trying to learn the circle of fifths, or the relative minors of every scale.
Appreciate what you're saying. But disagree there can be no wrong notes. If that were so each band member could play any note any time. Clearly that's not the case 99% of the time.
I understand where you are coming from and I agree. In the context of a band playing that is. You can't have everyone in the band playing absolutely anything they wanted at any moment. It would be a cacophony of sound (which I might actually like) but rather in a piece of music if someone one in band or maybe every member of the band play a "wrong note" in regards to the predetermined key of the progression and it may work beautifully in a jarring dissonant kind of way. In the grander scheme of things the guidelines/rules would say it is a mistake or a "wrong note" but is it really? I don't think so. I would call it "flavor".
Roy Vogt
Supporting Member
- Sep 20, 2000
- 4,433
- 537
- Disclosures
- Endorsing Artist: Kiesel Basses, Ampeg Amplification, Hotone Ampero II effects
Tell Nicky hi for me. He was my student briefly when he was 14. I remember he told me he was learning by playing along with records. I was expecting him to play some Kiss or Steve Miller but he had learned Teen Town note for note by ear at 14.....
