Unfortunately this is sad but many times true. We are our own worst enemies for sure.
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Things I've learned playing at church
- Thread starter Jarrett
- Start date
Unfortunately this is sad but many times true. We are our own worst enemies for sure.
OT: Here's what I know from sitting in an audience at mens' dinner. If it's a bunch of guys in the audience, and you're in a rockin' church, and you have a Les Paul around your neck... get on the amps and rip a guitar solo like Slash!!!!!!!!!!!!
In general, I'd like to see more physical movement on stage.
In general, I'd like to see more physical movement on stage.
This is interesting, as we had the opposite problem with our previous WL. He was brilliant technically (music degree), and wonderful in a solo setting. But in the band it was all pouning the keys and playin' 'em fast. The Drummer and I would lobby endlessly to slow down enough to create a groove.
LSquared said:
This is a problem we have, except our young drummers are usually pushing the tempo (along with the WL) while me and the lead guitar player are vocalizing the loss of the groove at that accelerated speed.
When the tempo is seemingly getting out of control, I usually have to resort to whole notes. If the tempo is up and I drive eighth notes, they might only go faster.
I'll get off my soap box now.
We really need to play to a click.
Any suggestions for this problem?
Yes there are a lot of politics and negative things that someone can get involved in while playing ay church. But I managed to stay away from all of that.
The most import things I learned was...to play with others, to listen, and to feel the music and let each instrument have a voice.
The most import things I learned was...to play with others, to listen, and to feel the music and let each instrument have a voice.
jmbjandfam said:
Totally. Took some getting used to, though.
Also, playing in church, you gotta NOT focus on yourself, and lay back and REALLY play for the song.
Please bear with me.... How did jazz bands in the '20s together with tempo? How did the Beatles do it? How do so called "bar bands" with two guitars w/full stacks, a bass with an Ampeg SVT 8x10 rig, and a drummer going after it with a vengeance do it?
Why ask all this stuff that most church players don't care about? Those guys didn't or don't have IEMs, digital boards, etc etc etc. They stay together as a band without gobs of money and technology. So what's the issue? Where is the failure point?
I would say that the failure point is that a church band is not performing for an audience but it the best case scenario is accompanying them. If all goes well the audience will be louder then the band, in more charismatic churches they will often have their own percussion and noise makers not to mention flags and dancers causing visual cues to throw off timing.
Normally the stage set is also more spread then an old time blues or jazz ensemble would have dealt with, for religious use of space and visual focus reasons. And the volumes produced on stage by more modern pop musicians which allowed them to spread apart but still hear each other are unacceptable because of the audience distribution. Those in front are not there for the music, but rather for the speaker and other rituals afterwards.
Normally the stage set is also more spread then an old time blues or jazz ensemble would have dealt with, for religious use of space and visual focus reasons. And the volumes produced on stage by more modern pop musicians which allowed them to spread apart but still hear each other are unacceptable because of the audience distribution. Those in front are not there for the music, but rather for the speaker and other rituals afterwards.
Worship is an accompanied prayer.
Understanding that explanation, puts the whole thing into context for me. It's not about the process its ALL about the purpose. Fortunately our leader is an extraordinary musician,he's also the Pastor.
Understanding that explanation, puts the whole thing into context for me. It's not about the process its ALL about the purpose. Fortunately our leader is an extraordinary musician,he's also the Pastor.
Awesome thread, lots of great points. If I may add my own observations from years of personal experience.
Its not a failure point. It is a situation that exists and the situation is this:
Most (not all) church players are bedroom pickers. They have never played in a bar and they never will. They put minimal time into their craft and minimal $ into their equipment. They couldnt sell themselves to the worst local dive for minimum $. So they play at church. To a CAPTIVE AUDIENCE. Literally. The politics of church dont allow ppl to be brutally honest with each other OR themselves. So half-ass musicianship, ego driven (yet talentless) music leadership is tolerated and allowed.
Tell me just ONE good reason why a leader would have mediocre players learn 5 songs in a specific key and then change 3 of them at the last second before they play live.
They say they are there to worship? Sorry, but I dont believe it. They are feeding their egos in the only venue that will tolerate their lack of musicianship, their inability to work as a team member, their unwillingness to practice on their own.
Like someone said earlier in the thread, when they (the poster) try to give honest help, advice, or constructive critism, they are met with hostility.
Why?
Because their ego cant take it, the desire for self-improvement is not there, and the ability/desire to co-operate is not there.
Yet, they say their whole reason for being there is "for God"....
Horse Hockey.
I am not trying to be uber negative/anti church/anti God here...........every statement I made was something I have seen with my own eyes and experienced personally. Every post made in this thread: I have experienced personally.
I agree with the op's first post about ALL of the great things that can be learned in the p&w world. I have learned so much, i am eternally greatful. And I am grateful for EVERY MINUTE I have ever had the privilege to play at church.
I love church. I love Jesus. It's the Christians that are killing me.
Its not a failure point. It is a situation that exists and the situation is this:
Most (not all) church players are bedroom pickers. They have never played in a bar and they never will. They put minimal time into their craft and minimal $ into their equipment. They couldnt sell themselves to the worst local dive for minimum $. So they play at church. To a CAPTIVE AUDIENCE. Literally. The politics of church dont allow ppl to be brutally honest with each other OR themselves. So half-ass musicianship, ego driven (yet talentless) music leadership is tolerated and allowed.
Tell me just ONE good reason why a leader would have mediocre players learn 5 songs in a specific key and then change 3 of them at the last second before they play live.
They say they are there to worship? Sorry, but I dont believe it. They are feeding their egos in the only venue that will tolerate their lack of musicianship, their inability to work as a team member, their unwillingness to practice on their own.
Like someone said earlier in the thread, when they (the poster) try to give honest help, advice, or constructive critism, they are met with hostility.
Why?
Because their ego cant take it, the desire for self-improvement is not there, and the ability/desire to co-operate is not there.
Yet, they say their whole reason for being there is "for God"....
Horse Hockey.
I am not trying to be uber negative/anti church/anti God here...........every statement I made was something I have seen with my own eyes and experienced personally. Every post made in this thread: I have experienced personally.
I agree with the op's first post about ALL of the great things that can be learned in the p&w world. I have learned so much, i am eternally greatful. And I am grateful for EVERY MINUTE I have ever had the privilege to play at church.
I love church. I love Jesus. It's the Christians that are killing me.
I've heard of "speaking to the elephant in the room," but you shot and stuffed the elephant and are waiting on buyers for the ivory.
I'm seeing glimpses of politics with the group I'm in as well. I definitely have some things to think and pray about.
I've been on P&W teams for nearly a quarter century and I've never encountered this attitude from a leader. I've seen this from a handful of electric guitarists however.
Sorry that your experience has been so poor. I've played in bar bands and in college ensembles and in churches and BY FAR my most rewarding fulfilling experiences have been in the church setting.
LOL. Yeah I get you. Sandpaper people. They are good for something however... God can use them to rub the rough corners off of us. Learning to love the unlovely and be patient with the egos and unhealthy team members can really stretch our flesh and cause us to learn what walking in love is really about. I mean everyone can love those that are nice, right?
BrickBatMansion said:
Two of our band members are professional musicians so just because its church doesn't mean its mediocre. We have a little politics and ego but for us, it actually is mostly about the worship. I've seen everything you've stated here but just because its happened occasionally doesn't mean it's not about God. Unless these things are chronic, you are being uber negative. If they are chronic, you might consider finding a new church.
to Rob: I answered these questions:
Originally Posted by HereIGoAgain
"Please bear with me.... How did jazz bands in the '20s together with tempo? How did the Beatles do it? How do so called "bar bands" with two guitars w/full stacks, a bass with an Ampeg SVT 8x10 rig, and a drummer going after it with a vengeance do it?
Why ask all this stuff that most church players don't care about? Those guys didn't or don't have IEMs, digital boards, etc etc etc. They stay together as a band without gobs of money and technology. So what's the issue? Where is the failure point?"
and
Originally Posted by Rip Topaz
"The only thing that really makes me crazy is when we rehearse on Tuesday evening and get everything situated, then show up on Sunday and the WL changes the key to three of the five songs!"
These were my answers based on my personal experience of 37 years (23 years professionally) of playing in bars, nightclubs, backyards, arenas, theatres, amphitheatres, and churches. I was not trying to pass judgement. Its like if I say "the grass is green"..........im not guessing if its green, Im not giving an opinion. It IS green.
Regarding my situation at the church I played at the longest, certain situations didnt "happen occasionally". They became chronic, and I did leave. And it was devastating.
Originally Posted by HereIGoAgain
"Please bear with me.... How did jazz bands in the '20s together with tempo? How did the Beatles do it? How do so called "bar bands" with two guitars w/full stacks, a bass with an Ampeg SVT 8x10 rig, and a drummer going after it with a vengeance do it?
Why ask all this stuff that most church players don't care about? Those guys didn't or don't have IEMs, digital boards, etc etc etc. They stay together as a band without gobs of money and technology. So what's the issue? Where is the failure point?"
and
Originally Posted by Rip Topaz
"The only thing that really makes me crazy is when we rehearse on Tuesday evening and get everything situated, then show up on Sunday and the WL changes the key to three of the five songs!"
These were my answers based on my personal experience of 37 years (23 years professionally) of playing in bars, nightclubs, backyards, arenas, theatres, amphitheatres, and churches. I was not trying to pass judgement. Its like if I say "the grass is green"..........im not guessing if its green, Im not giving an opinion. It IS green.
Regarding my situation at the church I played at the longest, certain situations didnt "happen occasionally". They became chronic, and I did leave. And it was devastating.
I would say the failure point is "coming out" too soon. I left my first church because they didn't rehearse........at all (maybe twice in 2 months). As a young bassist (at the time just a year and a half on the bass) I wanted the more experienced musicians to help me become better but they were annoyed when I didn't play something correctly. I'm partly to blame because I simply wasn't ready to play in a band yet. However, when we did rehearse and I got my parts down, it was wonderful, there were times the pastor wouldn't even preach because the spirit was moving and we played the whole service.
