Things I've learned playing at church

[Justbleazy]

Awesome thread, lots of great points. If I may add my own observations from years of personal experience.





Its not a failure point. It is a situation that exists and the situation is this:

Most (not all) church players are bedroom pickers. They have never played in a bar and they never will. They put minimal time into their craft and minimal $ into their equipment. They couldnt sell themselves to the worst local dive for minimum $. So they play at church. To a CAPTIVE AUDIENCE. Literally. The politics of church dont allow ppl to be brutally honest with each other OR themselves. So half-ass musicianship, ego driven (yet talentless) music leadership is tolerated and allowed.

Tell me just ONE good reason why a leader would have mediocre players learn 5 songs in a specific key and then change 3 of them at the last second before they play live.

They say they are there to worship? Sorry, but I dont believe it. They are feeding their egos in the only venue that will tolerate their lack of musicianship, their inability to work as a team member, their unwillingness to practice on their own.

Like someone said earlier in the thread, when they (the poster) try to give honest help, advice, or constructive critism, they are met with hostility.

Why?

Because their ego cant take it, the desire for self-improvement is not there, and the ability/desire to co-operate is not there.

Yet, they say their whole reason for being there is "for God"....

Horse Hockey.

I am not trying to be uber negative/anti church/anti God here...........every statement I made was something I have seen with my own eyes and experienced personally. Every post made in this thread: I have experienced personally.
I agree with the op's first post about ALL of the great things that can be learned in the p&w world. I have learned so much, i am eternally greatful. And I am grateful for EVERY MINUTE I have ever had the privilege to play at church.
I love church. I love Jesus. It's the Christians that are killing me.

I agree to a certain degree. Most of the church musicians I've played have played for popular secular bands, recording artists, mega chruches, records, etc....Even me only being a bassist for three years now, I've won competitions with my bass, been asked to sit in at jazz clubs, asked to start a secular band but it really depends on the musician's skills.

I think that some musicians get to a certain level where they are good and don't push to excel. Today, my church was a featured guest church and the home church's keyboardist was transposing every song. She was good but I wondered if she were on a piano would she be able to play in all of those keys? I have a cousin who is a monster on the board in the key of "C" but he has to transpose for C# - B.

When I brought up the "we practiced this song in Eb, but we played it in C." I was written off as not being able to catch on, and this is from the more experienced musicians.

The only good thing that comes from changing keys on the fly is that I have to rely on my ear more and improvising like crazy.

 

[CS]

The main question is 'are the congregation happy?'

The aforementioned bedroom pickers syndrome is fine if everyone is happy. What often happens is that one person is unhappy and wants to change it. The answer is to move to a church where one is not the problem.

I did that in 93.

 

[Jake Saint]

This had me laughing. It's not quite that bad at my church, but I do find the keyboardist/WL to be quite "handy" often. When I do sound, there are usually some EQ cuts and a nice fader pull down, but the regular guy likes to blast the keys for some reason, even though most of our songs are guitar-driven.

speaking as the sound guy at my church, that's because most old school church people want to hear the keys, more than anything else, and old school sound training leans that direction... and most church sound techs don't have a CLUE about proper EQ-ing or proper sound management.

 

[HereIGoAgain]

speaking as the sound guy at my church, that's because most old school church people want to hear the keys, more than anything else, and old school sound training leans that direction... and most church sound techs don't have a CLUE about proper EQ-ing or proper sound management.

Most church sound guys are volunteers who get 10 minutes of training, and five of those are spent with the trainer saying "Let's hurry up, I've got better things to do."

 

[Rob22315]

Awesome thread, lots of great points. If I may add my own observations from years of personal experience.

Its not a failure point. It is a situation that exists and the situation is this:

Most (not all) church players are bedroom pickers. They have never played in a bar and they never will. They put minimal time into their craft and minimal $ into their equipment. They couldnt sell themselves to the worst local dive for minimum $. So they play at church. To a CAPTIVE AUDIENCE. Literally. The politics of church dont allow ppl to be brutally honest with each other OR themselves. So half-ass musicianship, ego driven (yet talentless) music leadership is tolerated and allowed.

Tell me just ONE good reason why a leader would have mediocre players learn 5 songs in a specific key and then change 3 of them at the last second before they play live.

They say they are there to worship? Sorry, but I dont believe it. They are feeding their egos in the only venue that will tolerate their lack of musicianship, their inability to work as a team member, their unwillingness to practice on their own.

Like someone said earlier in the thread, when they (the poster) try to give honest help, advice, or constructive critism, they are met with hostility.

Why?

Because their ego cant take it, the desire for self-improvement is not there, and the ability/desire to co-operate is not there.

Yet, they say their whole reason for being there is "for God"....

Horse Hockey.

I am not trying to be uber negative/anti church/anti God here...........every statement I made was something I have seen with my own eyes and experienced personally. Every post made in this thread: I have experienced personally.
I agree with the op's first post about ALL of the great things that can be learned in the p&w world. I have learned so much, i am eternally greatful. And I am grateful for EVERY MINUTE I have ever had the privilege to play at church.
I love church. I love Jesus. It's the Christians that are killing me.

IMO you are being uber negative. You've taken the worst behaviors in praise bands, portrayed them as the prevalent experience and condemned the whole activity. The same could be done for bar bands or for touring bands and they would fare no better by your reasoning. Cynicism isn't a sign of maturity or sophistication, it's a sign of giving up. Go make it better or find better if you're so unhappy.

 

[mikegug]

Tell me just ONE good reason why a leader would have mediocre players learn 5 songs in a specific key and then change 3 of them at the last second before they play live.

Because the benefit outweighs the risk.

IMO you are being uber negative. You've taken the worst behaviors in praise bands, portrayed them as the prevalent experience and condemned the whole activity. The same could be done for bar bands or for touring bands and they would fare no better by your reasoning. Cynicism isn't a sign of maturity or sophistication, it's a sign of giving up. Go make it better or find better if you're so unhappy.

+1.

BBM, I am NOT saying this in a condescending manner at all, but I'm sorry you've had such bad experiences. P&W can be quite awesome. I've had mostly very good to great experiences. There have been the occasional bugger WL, but... you know... that's the world of art, in general.

 

[fingerbun]

Most (not all) church players are bedroom pickers. They have never played in a bar and they never will. They put minimal time into their craft and minimal $ into their equipment. They couldnt sell themselves to the worst local dive for minimum $. So they play at church. To a CAPTIVE AUDIENCE. Literally. The politics of church dont allow ppl to be brutally honest with each other OR themselves. So half-ass musicianship, ego driven (yet talentless) music leadership is tolerated and allowed.

I've had good and bad. Really good and awfully bad.

The best church musicians are awesome. But you often get rank amateurs. And all the normal dynamics of any band become far less tolerable when the resulting music is not pleasing.

The way I deal with it is to not seek musical fulfilment from church gigs. There are church gigs i stick with and "musicians" i work with as a service to God, that I would refuse in a heartbeat if they were secular. But that's easy to say when I have somewhere else to go musically.

 

[fingerbun]

The main question is 'are the congregation happy?'

The aforementioned bedroom pickers syndrome is fine if everyone is happy.

+1

 

[klokker]

The way I deal with it is to not seek musical fulfilment from church gigs.

That's pretty sound advice really. I've understood it as a willingness to hang in there, but you're way of putting it gets more to the point.

In my experience, it's usually the big saints who leave first. It's the sinners who hang in there when the poop hits the fan...........and it inevitably does.

 

[HereIGoAgain]

IMO you are being uber negative. You've taken the worst behaviors in praise bands, portrayed them as the prevalent experience and condemned the whole activity. The same could be done for bar bands or for touring bands and they would fare no better by your reasoning. Cynicism isn't a sign of maturity or sophistication, it's a sign of giving up. Go make it better or find better if you're so unhappy.

IMO, BrickBatMansion was simply calling it like he's seen it. I certainly have seen some of the things he's pointed out, and I'm sure that we've never met, and I'm more sure that the people we play with have never met. Yet lo and behold, we encounter similar things.

If your p+w group experiences have been better, I humbly suggest you be thankful for your experience and maybe put your effort to helping others make their experiences better.

 

[fingerbun]

Because the benefit outweighs the risk.

Having seen the same thing on occasion, I still question this one. Maybe the benefit outweighed the risk, but I've often encountered worship leaders who made bad calls because they didn't understand the risks of their decisions. For example a singer who only understood the impact on their voice, or a keyboard player who didn't understand that a good key for sax or trumpet is often a bad key for guitar and vice versa.

Or a leader who felt that musical quality was not the point of the exercise in church. Which is kind of true, but when the music is too bad it detracts from why we are there.

Three out of five songs needing the key changed raises the question why they got the wrong key in the first place. Even if the benefits of changing outweighed the risk, why was the risk created?

Let's not get it out of perspective, but it does suggest a possible skill deficit to me, of the sort that would potentially get a working band fired.

 

[joebar]

Having seen the same thing on occasion, I still question this one. Maybe the benefit outweighed the risk, but I've often encountered worship leaders who made bad calls because they didn't understand the risks of their decisions. For example a singer who only understood the impact on their voice, or a keyboard player who didn't understand that a good key for sax or trumpet is often a bad key for guitar and vice versa.

Or a leader who felt that musical quality was not the point of the exercise in church. Which is kind of true, but when the music is too bad it detracts from why we are there.

Three out of five songs needing the key changed raises the question why they got the wrong key in the first place. Even if the benefits of changing outweighed the risk, why was the risk created?

Let's not get it out of perspective, but it does suggest a possible skill deficit to me, of the sort that would potentially get a working band fired.

and well said too

 

[CS]

The key thing can be a problem. A lot of worship songs are written and recorded in a key suitable for the writer/original singer. A local church might want to change the key. An inexperienced band leader might struggle with finding the right key. Also if there are last minute changes to the vocalist (illness etc) the key might be changed at the last minute.

There are a couple of songs that I've learnt in three keys and they get rotated. As long as the charts have the change or it's only a semi tone or two I dont mind.

I've also experienced a last minute key change because the keyboard player left the transpose button on. One gets on with it and has a laugh later.

 

[fingerbun]

A local church might want to change the key. An inexperienced band leader might struggle with finding the right key. Also if there are last minute changes to the vocalist (illness etc) the key might be changed at the last minute.

Is the music for congregational participation or is it a performance?

Assuming it's for the congregation, shouldn't the songs be in a key that works for the congregation, not just the singer leading? And shouldn't that be a constant regardless of what singer it is?

I don't mind key changes either, but the point I was supporting was that many church musicians lack the experience or skill to cope with them. That's ok....there are lots of good reasons to use inexperienced musicians, but then you get a better result if you work within the limits of your players.

 

[Rob22315]

IMO, BrickBatMansion was simply calling it like he's seen it. I certainly have seen some of the things he's pointed out, and I'm sure that we've never met, and I'm more sure that the people we play with have never met. Yet lo and behold, we encounter similar things.

If your p+w group experiences have been better, I humbly suggest you be thankful for your experience and maybe put your effort to helping others make their experiences better.

You've made my points very well. 'Seem some of the things' and 'encounter similar things' don't mean that praise bands are uniquely consumed with drama and incompetence. Spend some time in the band management forum and you'll see what I mean.

I am trying to help BBM by suggesting he's taken an overly dim view of praise bands which is easy to do. We expect us Christians to behave better and have high standards and sometimes we do, sometimes we don't. Having love as our founding principle and God as our focus is supposed to allow us to blast through politics but it sometimes seems to make it worse.

 

[klokker]

I am trying to help BBM by suggesting he's taken an overly dim view of praise bands which is easy to do. We expect us Christians to behave better and have high standards and sometimes we do, sometimes we don't. Having love as our founding principle and God as our focus is supposed to allow us to blast through politics but it sometimes seems to make it worse.

Maybe I'm getting off topic here, but IME this is the core of the problem I've experienced in Praise Bands. When "higher expectations" are the expectation and God is supposed to allow us to blast through politics with love, then its something inherent in the faith that is the problem. This understanding of Christianity is, IMO, the core of the difficulty.

We have prayers that our rehearsals will go smoothly with no problems etc. and that we won't have conflict. As if the point of God is to make our lives problem free. This seems to be the set up for virtually every problem I've encountered in praise bands.....a faith that prays to avoid reality and can't handle it when reality shows up.

 

[mikegug]

Having seen the same thing on occasion, I still question this one. Maybe the benefit outweighed the risk, but I've often encountered worship leaders who made bad calls because they didn't understand the risks of their decisions....

Well, he asked for one reason and I gave him one.

Of course, not everyone making that decision will use sound judgement, but in reality, that I think my explanation covers most of those types of decisions save malicious intent.

When I wrote that, I thought to myself, "Well, who is gonna argue with that?!" LOL! It's all good though. Good exchange of ideas.

 

[busmandan]

Awesome thread, lots of great points. If I may add my own observations from years of personal experience.





Its not a failure point. It is a situation that exists and the situation is this:

Most (not all) church players are bedroom pickers. They have never played in a bar and they never will. They put minimal time into their craft and minimal $ into their equipment. They couldnt sell themselves to the worst local dive for minimum $. So they play at church. To a CAPTIVE AUDIENCE. Literally. The politics of church dont allow ppl to be brutally honest with each other OR themselves. So half-ass musicianship, ego driven (yet talentless) music leadership is tolerated and allowed.

Tell me just ONE good reason why a leader would have mediocre players learn 5 songs in a specific key and then change 3 of them at the last second before they play live.

They say they are there to worship? Sorry, but I dont believe it. They are feeding their egos in the only venue that will tolerate their lack of musicianship, their inability to work as a team member, their unwillingness to practice on their own.

Like someone said earlier in the thread, when they (the poster) try to give honest help, advice, or constructive critism, they are met with hostility.

Why?

Because their ego cant take it, the desire for self-improvement is not there, and the ability/desire to co-operate is not there.

Yet, they say their whole reason for being there is "for God"....

Horse Hockey.

I am not trying to be uber negative/anti church/anti God here...........every statement I made was something I have seen with my own eyes and experienced personally. Every post made in this thread: I have experienced personally.
I agree with the op's first post about ALL of the great things that can be learned in the p&w world. I have learned so much, i am eternally greatful. And I am grateful for EVERY MINUTE I have ever had the privilege to play at church.
I love church. I love Jesus. It's the Christians that are killing me.

I've been on P&W teams for nearly a quarter century and I've never encountered this attitude from a leader. I've seen this from a handful of electric guitarists however.

Sorry that your experience has been so poor. I've played in bar bands and in college ensembles and in churches and BY FAR my most rewarding fulfilling experiences have been in the church setting.

On the other hand, I've had the EXACT experience as B.B. Mansion, with some additional indignities thrown in for good measure.

 

[jamis]

My biggest thing is not making a face and mouthing the "F" word when I screw up.

Man, you had me laughing as soon as I read this. Been there done that (almost) during a service. The only one that knew /noticed was the wife. She let me know on the way home. LOL

 

[jamis]

Love participating but there is a ton of politics in all churches (that I've been at). It's too the point where often I will choose to only fill in so that I can focus on the message and not the hassle of prepping. It's a pain sometimes. Someone else mentioned that you'll practice on Tuesdays (for us it is Wed) and then everything changes that Sunday. But it's all worth it when you see people singing and listening, etc.

The one thing that is NOT stressed enough is the sound. I've been doing sound more than performing lately. My wife is always asking me why the keys are not so dominant when I do it vs. others. She says the keys are often too much and she's noticed that it all blends more when I'm doing sound because I pull back on the keys a bit. The WL is always telling me more in the monitor because no one can hear the keys. I do it during the rehearsals but then I pull back during the performance so the other bass player is heard and it all blends much more.

It's a constant pain (and tougher than the actual band I'm in) but at the end of the day it's worth it for where you are and why you are doing it.

People very much appreciate it and it makes a difference.