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Thoughts on getting really low

Masher88

Masher88

Believe in absurdities and you commit atrocities
May 7, 2005
1,856
18
53
Cleveland, OH
www.myspace.com
#1
Ok, here's my dilemma. I currently own a Peavey VB-2 (250 tube watts) and an Avatar 4x10 (non neo) cab. Oh and a G&L L-2000 bass. My band plays in drop C (CGCF) tuning with 2 guitar half stacks. Really low stuff. I had to get thicker gauge strings to avoid floppiness. I play fingerstyle.

The low bass peters out noticeably. I've been toying with the idea of getting 2-Carvin 18" BRX cabinets to replace the 4x10. Or should I get another 4x10? The loudness is there...but the bass extension is not.

Any thoughts? Suggestions?
 
#3
JimmyM said:
I'd look into a low tuned cab and forget about speaker size. One of the very lowest tuned cabs on the market, the Ampeg SVT 410hlf, uses 10"s.
Click to expand...

Yep. Pay attention to the whole cab, not the speaker size. Additionally, cab manufacturers tend to fib, fudge, and outright lie about the low frequency performance of their cabs! So first you do look at their specs for the claimed frequency range in order to narrow down the list of options to choose from, say down to six or so good contenders, then you bring that list of choices back here to the amps forum and search on them in order to read up on their actual performance. Or post a thread saying something like "Among these six cabs, which is likely to have the best low end response?"
 
#4
Tuning doesn't relate that much to how low your cabs need to go, that's determined by the tone, and the really low stuff doesn't figure into tone so much, since you can barely hear it with your ears, just feel it with your body. Aggressive high passing is probably going to do more for you than getting silly with cabs and watts, because it will stop you pushing your stuff harder than it can cope with, which is where the mud is. Super low cabs are for people who want a clean tone that goes low, and with two guitar half stacks on the go, no-one is going to appreciate it being that clean.
 
#5
Thanks, I'll check it out. I'm not really concerned with "size" of speakers. I just need the extension. I've been doing some research and I realize that it's not really the largeness of the speakers, it's the cone area (air displacement).

Any other cab suggestions for LOW?
 
#7
As previously mentioned by those much more in the know, an Ampeg 410HLF is super low. One cab will be enough, but two is more fun.

When I hit a D on the low B with both cabs, my water pressure drops because everyone within a block radius is flushing their toilets.:p
 
#8
Mr. Foxen said:
Just noticed you are using a valve amp, the output transformer is that is going to limit how low you amp can output, so going lower than that with cabs is not going to help you much. It already does the high pass thing I mentioned.
Click to expand...

+1

depending on the the design of the V-2 you may not be able to go as low as you want. Some tube heads can go that low, but not every output transformer is created equal.
 
#9
Mr. Foxen said:
Just noticed you are using a valve amp, the output transformer is that is going to limit how low you amp can output, so going lower than that with cabs is not going to help you much. It already does the high pass thing I mentioned.
Click to expand...

Interesting. Anybody know of how to get the relevant spec for the output transformer? The manual doesn't say anything and google is leading me nowhere.

I also have a SansAmp RBI Pre and a QSC PLX 3002 solid state amp. Would I be doing myself a favor by switching to this setup?
 
#11
I hear ya, Mrfoxen. I'm really looking for that "feeling" not "hearing". What's happening is when I hit the low open C note it almost sounds like there's a compressor squashing the signal. (no compressor is present). The note is audibly lower than other fretted notes. I want that note to shake the walls. ;) Not sure where to go from here. If anyone has suggestions on cabs to go try out...i'd appreciate it. Was looking at Acme 4x10, Ampeg hlf...? Or am I barking up the wrong tree with cabinets and just switch back to my SS amp?
 
#13
Masher88 said:
I hear ya, Mrfoxen. I'm really looking for that "feeling" not "hearing". What's happening is when I hit the low open C note it almost sounds like there's a compressor squashing the signal. (no compressor is present). The note is audibly lower than other fretted notes. I want that note to shake the walls. ;) Not sure where to go from here. If anyone has suggestions on cabs to go try out...i'd appreciate it. Was looking at Acme 4x10, Ampeg hlf...? Or am I barking up the wrong tree with cabinets and just switch back to my SS amp?
Click to expand...

Barefaced Big Twin and big SS power. What do you like about the valve amp. Compressing the lows is basically what they do.
 
#15
Mr. Foxen said:
Barefaced Big Twin and big SS power. What do you like about the valve amp. Compressing the lows is basically what they do.
Click to expand...

Well, our band is sort of a 70's metal throwback, Stoner/Doom band...and I instantly thought of the Sunn Coliseum or the SVT's ( I used to own the SVT CL years ago...nice amp, but heavy!). So, a really good deal on the Peavey VB-2 came up and I took a shot. It's a fabulous amp...especially since I paid $400 for it in new condition. I didn't know that tube amps would really limit the low bass extension.

I was running an Avatar 2x10 on top of the 4x10. Both 4 ohms, so the amp is seeing 2 ohms. I was trying to add more "oomph" with more cones. Not working. Before I buy new stuff: I think first experiment is just doing the 4x10 with the Tube amp. See if that helps. Then, trying the 4x10 with the SS pre/power amp setup.


For the record: I own a QSC PLX-3002 SS amp that I used to use. Specs say it will do 3000w into 4 ohms bridged (which is how I ran it). [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
 
#17
RickenBoogie said:
OK, using a 210 with a 410 is a problem too. The weak link will be the 210. Whatever it can do is the limit on the whole rig. The 410 gets equal power, and can handle more, but the 210 will struggle to "keep up". Not a good match at all.
Click to expand...

Yeah, after doing research on here, I kinda came to that same conclusion. My first experiment will be taking that outta the chain.
 
#18
Most doom bands I see that have that epic low end are usually running two 2X15 or more cabs to get the sound you are talking about. A VB2 can do 2 ohms so it is a possibility. You need to move more air not necessarily go lower.

Another thing is getting your guitarists to cut down the lows on their amps a bit. I know they are not going to want to do that but I had my guitarist cut his lows a bit and all the sudden my lows seemed way more massive.
 
#19
Probably not helpful for me to say it, but you should have gotten an 8 ohm 210 with the same drivers and cab performance as your 410, instead of a 4 ohm 210. Then all drivers see the same power.

So, I'd try the QSC running in two channels, unbridged. Then balance the power so the channel with the 210 is cut back, and the channel with the 410 is unattenuated. Avoid any built-in HPF.
 
#20
Masher88 said:
My band plays in drop C (CGCF) tuning with 2 guitar half stacks...The low bass peters out noticeably.
Click to expand...
For starters, drop C is 32.7 Hz
My RTA analysis of both D410-XLT and Avatar Neo 410 show these drop like a rock at 32 Hz.

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The 1st harmonic of the 32 Hz fundamental is 64 Hz.
The charts both show 60 Hz as the starting point for severe rolloff.
If you are a player who hears only the 1st harmonic, you should hear no droop.
However, you hear noticeable droop, so the fundamental is important to your ear.

This requirement for 32 Hz mandates a subwoofer as a separate cab to your existing setup.
To get down this low you need either a very big box or a lot of power.

Bi-amping and active crossovers are required, so this is a conflict with your existing tube head.
You could probably split the input signal to a 2nd preamp and poweramp dedicated to the sub.
Very few heads are bi-amp friendly.
This is why bi-amping is best suited for separate pre and power amps.

The typical 4x10 averages 100 to 106 SPL, 1 watt at 1 meter.
Subs capable of 32 Hz have SPL of 88 to 94, 1w/1m.
At best, this is a 12dB spread, or 16x more amplifier needed for the sub.
You need a minimum of 16 watts sub for every 1 watt 4x10.

Two Eminence LAB15 require a total internal volume of 4.58 cubic feet to hit an F3 of 34 Hz.
These are 88 SPL each, or 94 SPL as a mutually coupled, parallel pair.
These are 6 ohm nominal drivers, so a parallel 3-ohm load is presented to your subwoofer amp.
My PLX-3002 would drive a pair of these to full power.
At a power ratio of 12:1, the 2xLAB15 at full 600w input power is matched by your tube amp at just under 38 watts.
At 12:1, the 250w tube head at max output requires a 4,000w sub amp which far exceeds the rating of the LAB15 pair.

The 2xLAB15 might be workable if you don't drive the tube head above 38 watts.
Venues do not have 4,000 watt circuits available on stage.
Nor do they have room for three 2x15 and multiple sub amps.

To get an efficient sub that matches your 250w tube amp and current cabs, you have to move to a bass horn.
A 36" wide T-48 will get you the depth and loudness required to keep up with the tube head.
Bi-amping is still required, but with a smaller power amp.
T48 in 36" hits 102 SPL, 40 Hz, 1w/1m.

You will need a trailer for T48.
I have one sitting in my 5x10 trailer, and three more ready for assembly in my garage.
The size of these (48" x 36" x 24") is not for the faint of heart.
 

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