Thunderbird Club

[Markamb1]

I’m sure there were perhaps alternative reasons as well but in the end it’s all fluff to me. This is the reality and a practiced pattern I’ve noticed with company after company.

I’ve never owned or sold a company but basics are basics... and in my own field this is what I would do and like these companies I’d never say it out loud officially.

 

[Markamb1]

Sooo I guess I. The early 70s production went to japan and inexpensive versions were made... they dropped all of Epis original high quality models...

1975 The reintroduced old models and improved production.... my guess...because they don’t say it....they were still cheaper than Gibson because that was the whole idea...

Nvm this is easier

Japan
In the early 1970s, Invalid Link Removed began to manufacture Epiphone instruments in Japan[10] with the production and distribution being managed by Aria, in cooperation with Gibson. At this time, Epiphone ceased production of all of its traditional designs and began manufacturing markedly less expensive guitars, many of which had less traditional bolt-on style necks and unspecified wood types.[11] Some of these guitars had similar body shapes to traditional Epiphone and Gibson designs but had different names while other models retained certain model designations, such as the FT (Flat Top) guitars.[12] Construction of these guitars differed greatly from past Epiphone models. For the first several years of production in Japan, Epiphone guitars were actually rebranded designs already produced by the Matsumoku Company.[13]

By 1975, the Japanese market started seeing some of the more familiar designs and names being reintroduced. These guitars were of higher quality than that of the previous years of production in Japan and included models such as the Wilshire, Emperor, Riviera and Newport bass.[14] These models were available to the Japanese market only. By 1976 new designs of higher quality were being introduced for export but did not include the current Japanese market models. Notable new designs from this era were the Monticello (Scroll Guitar), the Presentation (PR) and Nova series flat tops and the Genesis solid body guitar. By 1980, most Japanese-only designs were available for worldwide distribution. The Matsumoku-made archtops, such as the Emperor, Riviera, Sheraton and Casino, were available into the mid-1980s.

Korea
From the 1980s, Epiphones were manufactured mainly in Korea and Japan by contractors licensed by Gibson.[10][15] One of these contractors was Samick,[15] which also built instruments under license for other brands and in its own name. The brand was primarily used to issue less expensive versions of classic Gibson models.[15]

These guitars were constructed using different woods (usually Nyatoh,[citation needed] for example, instead of Mahogany), were fastened with epoxies rather than wood-glues.[citation needed] Gibson and Epiphone guitars all use Titebond resin glue, which is simple carpenters' wood glue, and were finished in hard, quick-to-apply polyester resin rather than the traditional nitro-cellulose lacquer used by Gibson[citation needed] Epiphone guitars assembled or made in the US use lacquer finishes, but those made outside of the US use a poly urethane finish because of pollution requirements. These particular budget considerations, along with others such as plastic nuts and cheaper hardware and pickups, allow for a more affordable instrument.

Samick has stopped[when?] manufacturing guitars in Korea.

I think going on to the Chinese production in 2004 would be overkill times infinity no erasies.

 

[Markamb1]

So the answer to my own question is 1970

1956/57 and earlier great....they were their own man attempting to compete on the world stage....

1957 and after still good but you have to start to wonder....

By early 1970, production had moved to japan and the whole idea was less expensive, less good. They got rid of most epi models. Especially the ones that could compete.

Gibson is God.... they say

but if you will not or can not buy Gibson we’ll sell you Epiphone, get you hooked on our style and brand and wait for you to spend your money on Gibson.

 

[Markamb1]

My mistake Mercury was created by ford.

Mercury is a defunct division of the American automobile manufacturer Ford Motor Company. Marketed as an entry-level premium brand for nearly its entire existence, Mercury was created in 1938 by Edsel Ford.

What I never knew was that mercury was supposed to bridge the gap between Ford and Lincoln as a medium priced car. I always thought Mercury was bought by Ford and became the low end version. Shows how much I think of mercury... those 60s cougars were Nice though.

 

[Markamb1]

https://www.lifecoachcode.com/2017/02/02/companies-own-food-media-internet/

Check the link they break down how a handful of companies own everything within a certain sector with very simple pictures...

Transnational Corporations can’t be stopped. Parent companies rule the world. Laws that claim they matter are a big joke.

Gibson Is Epiphones Master

500million+ In debt.... but master all the same

 

[dukeorock]

Anyway...

I know I’ve mentioned that I like DR Lo Rider SS strings on some of my basses. The Drake in particular. Put a fresh set on my Gibson T Bird w/ Lollars and they kinda suck. I’d been running Cobalt flats on that bass for my roots gigs and really loved it. Gotta find a happy medium on that bass or go back to Cobalts. KS Bass Burners on the Cataldo is pretty much non negotiable though

 

[Miles_ONeal]

Simply untrue. If it were the case, when a company is purchased, the non-buyers in the industry would see their stock price rise whereas the purchaser's stock price would fall. Further, if the only reason for buying a company were to reduce competition, it would never pass government review under anti-trust/anti-combines legislation. In fact, even a hint of reduced competition can scuttle a deal. To pass competition review, there is often a requirement that similar/competing product lines be sold prior to completion of the deal.

I have done this (sold a company). More than once.

If there are lots of companies doing what you're doing, buying out the competition is unlikely to cause anti-trust problems.

 

[Miles_ONeal]

Oh so that’s what this thing is?!
It’s not vintage art?!

View attachment 3251088

They're not mutually exclusive.

 

[Markamb1]

What are low riders like?

Anyway...

I know I’ve mentioned that I like DR Lo Rider SS strings on some of my basses. The Drake in particular. Put a fresh set on my Gibson T Bird w/ Lollars and they kinda suck. I’d been running Cobalt flats on that bass for my roots gigs and really loved it. Gotta find a happy medium on that bass or go back to Cobalts. KS Bass Burners on the Cataldo is pretty much non negotiable though

 

[GBassNorth]

Sorry if this has been addressed before by T-Bird experts, but can anyone compare the tone of the Epiphone Embassy Pro to a T-Bird? Specifically older versions from the 60s and 70s. Under $400 one might expect junk, but I'm curious.

Dude, use the search function.
Just kidding, I think you'll find someone in this club that can answer your question with first hand knowledge. Unfortunately it's not me.

I have heard some folks in the club, whose opinions I highly respect, claim that the 1960 TBird and the new Epiphone Thunderbird Vintage Pro sound relatively similar. And that the 1970 TBird sounds a bit brighter than the 1960 TBird. So if you can find somebody that has tried both the Embassy Pro and the TBird Vintage Pro you might be able to triangulate an answer to your question. IIRC the Embassy Pro has the same electronics as the Vintage Pro. If that's correct, and if the wood selections are similar along with the neck/body construction I'd expect the two to sound very close to each other and by extension not far from the tone of the 1960 Gibson Thunderbird.

Gibson bought Epiphone in 57... assuming there was inventory left there could be some good stuff for a little while after. Before 57 I believe they were quite good, their own brand.... I’d like to know by which point Gibson had subjected them to being strictly inferior instruments.

I'll take exception with your use of the word "inferior" especially as implied to the entire Epiphone line up.

Gibson has structured the Epiphone offerings to appeal to players looking for Gibson like products at a lower price point. Do not confuse lower cost with "inferior". My $2000 Gibson 50th Anniversary Thunderbird falls short of my $600 Epiphone Thunderbird Vintage Pro in the build quality, fit and finish category. Tone wise and playability they are pretty much neck and neck. I certainly would not consider one to be inferior to the other. The Gibby has better tuners, and the Eppi a better bridge, the Gibby better finish, the Eppi better pickups. Bottom line, the Gibby TBird is a bit over priced for what you get and the Eppi VP is way under priced for what you get.

I have a Goth Bird also, and at $300 it's worth every cent, maybe more. One could argue that having a bolt on neck makes it inferior to the neck through Gibby bird design, but that logic would get you burned alive on any Fender forum.

Some folks are drawn to bolt on necks, some prefer neck through designs and others want set necks. Some people want the deep dark tone of a Goth over the more articulate tone of a VP. Some people want the easier reach of a Short Scale bird over a full length one. Some people like the durability of poly finishes vs nitro.

In other words it just doesn't make sense use a broad brush to paint Epiphone products as "inferior" to Gibson products when superiority and inferiority are terms largely defined by individual users. Are they less expensive, yes. Are they inferior, not necessarily, depends on what you want out of the instrument.

Since Behringer bought Midas, TC Electronics and Klark Teknik (sp?), the quality of so many of their products has gone up dramatically. I still can’t bring myself to buy any of their stuff yet though. They have one semi modular synth that for once isn’t a clone (rip off) of something else and the price is so reasonable I’ve been tempted, but have never even fired one up. Don’t know why, but I just can’t do it. Maybe I do know why

I've steered clear of Behringer products for as long as I've been playing bass. Not from any first hand experience but from all the quality control and equipment failure issues I've heard on Talkbass. Right or wrong, that's what I've done.

Interestingly, that's exactly what I did for most of my bass playing life with Gibson products. Heard horror stories - massive neck dive, self detaching headstocks, mud or thud tone, embarrassing fit and finish, an unusable three point bridge, a jerk for a CEO, etc. With the exception of the last item none of those issues has turned out to be true to me (and the jerk is now gone so even that item is a bust now days).

I wonder how well founded my Behringer phobia really is. I'll probably never find out at this point because I've got all my rig needs addressed for life.

Oh so that’s what this thing is?!
It’s not vintage art?!
View attachment 3251088

I just assumed it was a vintage exercise tool for your index finger.

Anyway...
I know I’ve mentioned that I like DR Lo Rider SS strings on some of my basses. The Drake in particular. Put a fresh set on my Gibson T Bird w/ Lollars and they kinda suck. I’d been running Cobalt flats on that bass for my roots gigs and really loved it. Gotta find a happy medium on that bass or go back to Cobalts. KS Bass Burners on the Cataldo is pretty much non negotiable though

Duke - loved the Cobalt flats on my Eppi VP Bird. Took them off after a couple of weeks to continue down the string experiment path with the VP in hopes of finding the perfect string for a very unique bird.

On a club members recommendation I tried Fender 7150ML Strings and think I've found something I like even better than the Cobalt flats on this Bird. They've been on for a couple of months now and are wearing very well. Because they are a round string they have a bit more top end definition than the Cobalts flats and with the pure nickel construction they have a bit more bottom as well, maybe just a tad less mids but not nearly shy enough to get lost in a mix. They're cheap and easy to get, try some out, I'll bet you'll love em.

 

[dukeorock]

What are low riders like?

Subjective, but on my Drake (with TV Jones Thunder Blade pickups), I find them really punchy and clear with a little less harmonic stuff than some roundwounds. Can’t explain why they don’t work on that one T Bird, but they really don’t.

Duke - loved the Cobalt flats on my Eppi VP Bird. Took them off after a couple of weeks to continue down the string experiment path with the VP in hopes of finding the perfect string for a very unique bird.

On a club members recommendation I tried Fender 7150ML Strings and think I've found something I like even better than the Cobalt flats on this Bird. They've been on for a couple of months now and are wearing very well. Because they are a round string they have a bit more top end definition than the Cobalts flats and with the pure nickel construction they have a bit more bottom as well, maybe just a tad less mids but not nearly shy enough to get lost in a mix. They're cheap and easy to get, try some out, I'll bet you'll love em.

I’m on it! Thanks for the tip!

 

[Markamb1]

Dude, use the search function.
Just kidding, I think you'll find someone in this club that can answer your question with first hand knowledge. Unfortunately it's not me.

I have heard some folks in the club, whose opinions I highly respect, claim that the 1960 TBird and the new Epiphone Thunderbird Vintage Pro sound relatively similar. And that the 1970 TBird sounds a bit brighter than the 1960 TBird. So if you can find somebody that has tried both the Embassy Pro and the TBird Vintage Pro you might be able to triangulate an answer to your question. IIRC the Embassy Pro has the same electronics as the Vintage Pro. If that's correct, and if the wood selections are similar along with the neck/body construction I'd expect the two to sound very close to each other and by extension not far from the tone of the 1960 Gibson Thunderbird.


I'll take exception with your use of the word "inferior" especially as implied to the entire Epiphone line up.

Gibson has structured the Epiphone offerings to appeal to players looking for Gibson like products at a lower price point. Do not confuse lower cost with "inferior". My $2000 Gibson 50th Anniversary Thunderbird falls short of my $600 Epiphone Thunderbird Vintage Pro in the build quality, fit and finish category. Tone wise and playability they are pretty much neck and neck. I certainly would not consider one to be inferior to the other. The Gibby has better tuners, and the Eppi a better bridge, the Gibby better finish, the Eppi better pickups. Bottom line, the Gibby TBird is a bit over priced for what you get and the Eppi VP is way under priced for what you get.

I have a Goth Bird also, and at $300 it's worth every cent, maybe more. One could argue that having a bolt on neck makes it inferior to the neck through Gibby bird design, but that logic would get you burned alive on any Fender forum.

Some folks are drawn to bolt on necks, some prefer neck through designs and others want set necks. Some people want the deep dark tone of a Goth over the more articulate tone of a VP. Some people want the easier reach of a Short Scale bird over a full length one. Some people like the durability of poly finishes vs nitro.

In other words it just doesn't make sense use a broad brush to paint Epiphone products as "inferior" to Gibson products when superiority and inferiority are terms largely defined by individual users. Are they less expensive, yes. Are they inferior, not necessarily, depends on what you want out of the instrument.


I've steered clear of Behringer products for as long as I've been playing bass. Not from any first hand experience but from all the quality control and equipment failure issues I've heard on Talkbass. Right or wrong, that's what I've done.

Interestingly, that's exactly what I did for most of my bass playing life with Gibson products. Heard horror stories - massive neck dive, self detaching headstocks, mud or thud tone, embarrassing fit and finish, an unusable three point bridge, a jerk for a CEO, etc. With the exception of the last item none of those issues has turned out to be true to me (and the jerk is now gone so even that item is a bust now days).

I wonder how well founded my Behringer phobia really is. I'll probably never find out at this point because I've got all my rig needs addressed for life.


I just assumed it was a vintage exercise tool for your index finger.


Duke - loved the Cobalt flats on my Eppi VP Bird. Took them off after a couple of weeks to continue down the string experiment path with the VP in hopes of finding the perfect string for a very unique bird.

On a club members recommendation I tried Fender 7150ML Strings and think I've found something I like even better than the Cobalt flats on this Bird. They've been on for a couple of months now and are wearing very well. Because they are a round string they have a bit more top end definition than the Cobalts flats and with the pure nickel construction they have a bit more bottom as well, maybe just a tad less mids but not nearly shy enough to get lost in a mix. They're cheap and easy to get, try some out, I'll bet you'll love em.

Absolutely. Generally though that’s the idea. Choose a better word if you like. I had said that earlier as well. My Epiphone custom is nearly as good as my Gibson studio. There are Gibson’s that no epi will touch..... and whats the most expensive epi? Epi gives you options that Gibson might never care to offer you....

at one point though early 70s epi was made inferior.... it was totally abused, which was my initial question.

 

[RedVee]

Gibson bought Epiphone in 57... assuming there was inventory left there could be some good stuff for a little while after. Before 57 I believe they were quite good, their own brand.... I’d like to know by which point Gibson had subjected them to being strictly inferior instruments.

So the answer to my own question is 1970

1956/57 and earlier great....they were their own man attempting to compete on the world stage....

1957 and after still good but you have to start to wonder....

By early 1970, production had moved to japan and the whole idea was less expensive, less good. They got rid of most epi models. Especially the ones that could compete.

Gibson is God.... they say

but if you will not or can not buy Gibson we’ll sell you Epiphone, get you hooked on our style and brand and wait for you to spend your money on Gibson.

Yep, you pretty much answered your own questions.
I’ll will add that the US built Epis through the 60s seem to have a good reputation.
I give you as an example the Epiphone Casino guitar. It seems to have overshadowed the Gibson equivalent (345?).
Users such as Keef, McCartney, Lennon & Harrison plus many many more up to the current day.

 

[Larry V]

Thanks for depressing me even more. But do have a great holiday!

Sorry about that and thanks, I'll try!

You could always go on a Clark Griswold daydream vacation.

 

[PillO]

@GBassNorth What is Santa doing to your bird!?



Ahem.

 

[JJR58]

Anyway...

I know I’ve mentioned that I like DR Lo Rider SS strings on some of my basses. The Drake in particular. Put a fresh set on my Gibson T Bird w/ Lollars and they kinda suck. I’d been running Cobalt flats on that bass for my roots gigs and really loved it. Gotta find a happy medium on that bass or go back to Cobalts. KS Bass Burners on the Cataldo is pretty much non negotiable though

May i suggest Dunlop SS Super Brights as one possible option.

 

[Miles_ONeal]

Absolutely. Generally though that’s the idea. Choose a better word if you like. I had said that earlier as well. My Epiphone custom is nearly as good as my Gibson studio. There are Gibson’s that no epi will touch..... and whats the most expensive epi? Epi gives you options that Gibson might never care to offer you....

at one point though early 70s epi was made inferior.... it was totally abused, which was my initial question.

Agreed. I recall that dark time. Even after Epi was allowed to be Epi again, the stigma remained for a long time.
Then again, there was a period 10-15 years ago when the only place Epi was down on Gibson was electronics; Epiphones were more playable and I trusted the finishes better. There were $2K-$3K Les Pauls and $1K-$1.5K Flying Vs with nearly unplayable frets. They'd rip your fingers open. You could buy an Epi for 1/3 - 1/2 the price, upgrade the electronics, and come out well ahead, and that was before fixing the problems with the Gibbies.

 

[BuffaloMcD]

Advice sought:
I picked up a Epi TB IV Goth for next-to-nothing. SN lookup tells me it was made in 2004 and looks to be unmodified, which I guess means Epiphone TB Plus bass humbuckers although there are no external markings.

I love the way the bass feels and looks. I also like the low-end fine, but would like to get more of a classic Entwistle TB sound out of it.

Is it worth updating the pickups on such a cheap bass?

What pickups would people recommend for my desire outcome.

Thanks for your advice.

 

[Markamb1]

For sure. There is a problem with complacency and egotistical arrogance... successful companies and people quickly lose their edge. Repeated failures are more like to achieve and maintain success long term.

General Motors and BlackBerry are great examples. BlackBerry had the world market by the balls with smartphone technology. They were first but grew to be obese and poorly managed. It can be difficult to not indulge in your own success. It’s deadly though.

Gibson is in debt over 500million... was surprised by that.

I read that Gibson through the norlin year starting in 1969 became poor as well and That by 1977 most of the things they’d become unpopular for were being fixed..... I haven’t read further yet.

 

[dukeorock]

Yep, you pretty much answered your own questions.
I’ll will add that the US built Epis through the 60s seem to have a good reputation.
I give you as an example the Epiphone Casino guitar. It seems to have overshadowed the Gibson equivalent (345?).
Users such as Keef, McCartney, Lennon & Harrison plus many many more up to the current day.

I think Epi were seen as totally legit for a very long time. My main recording upright is a 1948 Epiphone B4. Sweet bass.

May i suggest Dunlop SS Super Brights as one possible option.

Yes you may! I’ve used them on a few basses in the past, but haven’t tried em on a T Bird yet