Thunderbird Club

[JIO]

I must admit their clinging to the three point is baffling. Gibson surly must monitor bass forums and know the vast majority want the return of a 60's style bridge. With the introduction and success of the Epiphone Vintage Pro surely they can't be that dense.

I'm going to give them (too much) credit here - but maybe they thought..."Hey, let's do a hybrid of a late '60s NR and ... er... with the post '76 reversed T-bird 3-point bridge! It'll be new and wow and cool! Whatya' say???"

 

[dagrev]

I don't disagree with any of the above. But I think the unit of analysis is wrong.

Go back a couple of years - Gibson filed for bankruptcy and was restructured with equity swapped for debt. Debt holders took control of the company. Debt investors are quite different from equity investors. Debt investors NEVER want to lose money on a bond. They don't care if they are making almost nothing as long as the principle is secure. Equity holders on the other hand are happy to take some risk; losses on one stock are made up for with the out-sized returns on another; a luxury available to debt holders.

You now have a Gibson with a board of directors controlled by debt holders who were forced to accept equity. They are already feeling wounded and will be very risk averse. So I am betting that every Gibson design is being signed off by the Board of Directors and they are being very cautious (never another debacle like robo-tuners on everything, or Firebird X). So a board that saw returns on the Embassy for a two piece bridge is not going to approve that again.

Contrast to how I suspect things are currently going at 7ender. Board sees a new design and asks about incremental sales and incremental operating profit, caring little about the specifics of design (although probably not going to sign off on another Dimension any time soon).

In time, when the Gibson debt holders have made back their money and are cycling out of the investment and off the board, there will be the opportunity to get a bit more experimental. But that time is not now.

Great analysis to compliment other's thoughts. As perplexing as it is as a player, I have to agree that at this point, the business side is driving the bus more than anything else for the reasons you indicated. It is largely about profit (which is not a bad thing at all). Without it we would never need to worry about any bridge on any Thunderbird. Companies like to (must) eat just like individuals. If that doesn't happen nothing else does either. A shaky business is a scared business--most of the time.

 

[JIO]

I'm quoting, "innovate not, question nothing, Dad Tone!" "Jaco only needed four, slapping is for ***holes" Dad Tone!

I get the gist of it, but (never having kids) if "dad tone" means negating certain unquestionably formidable bass tones/styles over the decades, (take your pick...) I've always considered a bass-players roll as being well-versed in contemporary electric bass music's history and being able to (at least) approximate the appropriate style needed when called for - YOMV. Maybe "dad tone" is "boomer" tone - but even as I was in the middle of that time-span - I will never dis classic bass styles of any decade as they all were created by musicians/artist of that time, and it just so happens that the '60s-early '70s produced some of the best music in contemporary times. That players longed for that and emulated it later - so be it. Now get off my lawn!

disclaimer: I don't (uncontrollably) slap. I can, but choose not to... I also don't rock a 5 string... but I could if needed.

 

[JIO]

Great analysis to compliment other's thoughts. As perplexing as it is as a player, I have to agree that at this point, the business side is driving the bus more than anything else for the reasons you indicated. It is largely about profit (which is not a bad thing at all). Without it we would never need to worry about any bridge on any Thunderbird. Companies like to (must) eat just like individuals. If that doesn't happen nothing else does either. A shaky business is a scared business--most of the time.

It does put emphasis on visionary people who see what is developing and capitalize on it.

 

[godofthunder59]

I promised myself that I wasn't going to piss and moan about the three point but for Pete's sake I'd like to see a decent NR before I die. I've have one good friend who died waiting.

 

[69'Vette]

I'm with you, Scott.

 

[JIO]

I promised myself that I wasn't going to piss and moan about the three point but for Pete's sake I'd like to see a decent NR before I die. I've have one good friend who died waiting.

G&L did it right with their recent CLF series. It wouldn't be unprecedented.

 

[GBassNorth]

Yes indeed! Speaking of tools... my good friend Jim collects tools; planes, levels, hammers, screwdrivers, chisels, etc. He finds them, lovingly restores them and just appreciates them. It starts with being an artist (master art lithographer & painter) but he also can do pretty much anything work/craftsman related so he knows how tools are used. He helped me craft my Koa Factorbird fretless body, 25 years ago now. Other than ergonomic sculpting, it was spec'd from my '64 T-bird II - a 3 piece bonded with V joints and tapered wings. The rout for Kubicki's tuner/bridge unit was very tricky, but he 'nailed' it.

View attachment 4139862

View attachment 4139899
Still have the paper moquette I made to imagine the cavity - also, a bit later I made a wood/laminate 'plug' for a Kubicki body to convert it into a standard bridge/tuners-on-the-neck bass which is what the drawing refers to.
View attachment 4139916

I bet that end of the shop is an exciting place to be during an earthquake.

 

[JIO]

I bet that end of the shop is an exciting place to be during an earthquake.

Their house is in San Bruno, a fair bit away from the San Andreas Fault-line - built pre 1906. One of the oldest houses in the area. Most likely it'll be ok during the next one.

 

[Miles_ONeal]

Absolutely unresponsive at best, and possibly risk averse as well. Not uncommon in a work environment where people are focused on keeping their job vs doing what's right. Not sure if that environment still exists at Gibson but it sure did under the old leadership.


...and yet they (Epiphone) totally screwed up the installation and sent countless Embassy basses out the door in the last couple of years with an incorrectly located bridge making it impossible to intonate. Returns were significant, profits were lost, consumers weren't happy and their image was further tarnished. They managed to do this in spite of computer modeling, CNC manufacturing and a perfectly good two piece bridge. And yes there have been some TBird VPs with similar issues, fortunately not many.

I personally love the two piece bridge and really wish they had put it on the new Gibby. But coming from a corporate product design background I can easily imagine a design meeting where someone suggests using the VP bridge and a senior manager whose more concerned with losing his job and wants to avoid risk responds with - "Are you aware how many Epiphone Embassy basses we had to eat last year because of that stupid bridge, we aren't going down that path!"

Of course we'll never know the logic they used for sure. They had a good option and chose not to use it, likewise one would think they are perfectly capable of properly installing the two piece but they in fact failed that task on a significant number of basses as well. Looks to me like the three point was the safe option and easy path. I can live with it, it's a perfectly functional bridge, just wish they had gone the extra yard and used the two piece.

I have to admit that had I not had such a great experience with my bolt-on bird, my experience with that Pro V would have had me skittish about Epiphones. Bridge poorly attached, warped because of that, and misaligned to begin with. Once that was fixed, the strings were still too close to the neck. The truss rod took ridiculous torque to turn (with no signs of rust or abuse). Yes, I wrangled it into shape, but I shouldn't have had to.

 

[Miles_ONeal]

Great analysis to compliment other's thoughts. As perplexing as it is as a player, I have to agree that at this point, the business side is driving the bus more than anything else for the reasons you indicated. It is largely about profit (which is not a bad thing at all). Without it we would never need to worry about any bridge on any Thunderbird. Companies like to (must) eat just like individuals. If that doesn't happen nothing else does either. A shaky business is a scared business--most of the time.

Sure. But they need to listen to the people who really understand the product and market as well. That's a healthy part of being risk averse as much as it is about risking tings to grow.

 

[Miles_ONeal]

I promised myself that I wasn't going to piss and moan about the three point but for Pete's sake I'd like to see a decent NR before I die. I've have one good friend who died waiting.

Get the new one and make it the right one! And yeah, I get it.

 

[Toptube]

Sorry, (my bad) not '96 - but '06... introduced in June of '05 (as Fender does 1/2 year launches) I went to buy one in December '06 and ended up getting the '51 P RI of the same product launch. I ended up hating the mustard colour and buzzy single-coil so did a total redefinition of the bass.

View attachment 4140534

That's a perfect looking bass right there

 

[Gaolee]

Their house is in San Bruno, a fair bit away from the San Andreas Fault-line - built pre 1906. One of the oldest houses in the area. Most likely it'll be ok during the next one.

My house is balloon frame 1906 construction. We bolted it to the foundation, so it will just flop around otherwise. It won't bounce off the foundation and fall in the hole now. It will be here 100 years from now if the developers bulldozers don't kill it.

 

[Gaolee]

I'm going to give them (too much) credit here - but maybe they thought..."Hey, let's do a hybrid of a late '60s NR and ... er... with the post '76 reversed T-bird 3-point bridge! It'll be new and wow and cool! Whatya' say???"

I was happy with 3-point bridges until the 2013 EB came along with a Babicz. And then the 2015 'Bird. If you want to experience bad, try the 2-point that is still on my EB-2. It is set up and works fine so long as you don't touch it. That is a sweet sounding bass guitar. I doubt the bridge helps much.

 

[11th Street Kid]

I was happy with 3-point bridges until the 2013 EB came along with a Babicz. And then the 2015 'Bird. If you want to experience bad, try the 2-point that is still on my EB-2. It is set up and works fine so long as you don't touch it. That is a sweet sounding bass guitar. I doubt the bridge helps much.

I’m making a concentrated effort to do more of my own set up. How much do you need to loosen the strings when adjusting a 3-point? Full step down? More?

 

[PillO]

Great analysis to compliment other's thoughts. As perplexing as it is as a player, I have to agree that at this point, the business side is driving the bus more than anything else for the reasons you indicated. It is largely about profit (which is not a bad thing at all). Without it we would never need to worry about any bridge on any Thunderbird. Companies like to (must) eat just like individuals. If that doesn't happen nothing else does either. A shaky business is a scared business--most of the time.

Few people understand the debt-holders (bond investors, bank loan officers etc.) mindset. People seem to think that taking risk and losing is part of their business. It isn't. If a banker (or bond holder or mortgager...) has to write off a loan, it requires 100+ good loans to break even. If you think that banks should just write off loans you need to be prepared for interest rates 5-10x higher.

 

[PillO]

Great analysis to compliment other's thoughts. As perplexing as it is as a player, I have to agree that at this point, the business side is driving the bus more than anything else for the reasons you indicated. It is largely about profit (which is not a bad thing at all). Without it we would never need to worry about any bridge on any Thunderbird. Companies like to (must) eat just like individuals. If that doesn't happen nothing else does either. A shaky business is a scared business--most of the time.

Unless you are a solo builder of instruments, the business side is always driving the bus. Just some companies are better at obscuring that fact.

 

[PillO]

Sure. But they need to listen to the people who really understand the product and market as well. That's a healthy part of being risk averse as much as it is about risking tings to grow.

That is what got them into trouble in the first place - listening to "experts" that "knew better than" everyone else. I suspect that they are now putting their faith not in soothsayers, but in well conducted market research and conducting well controlled market experiments.

I suspect that the NR `bird is one such experiment. Probably seeing which "vintage" colours do well (why there are 3 not 2 and not 5 or 6) on a vintage style bass for which they know there will be at least some demand.

 

[godofthunder59]

I’m making a concentrated effort to do more of my own set up. How much do you need to loosen the strings when adjusting a 3-point? Full step down? More?

I loosen them up till they are flopping around like a dead fish, the three point binds up with string tension.