Time to leave ?

[the harp unstrung]

I Like that too, but you "gay baby" one honestly made me laugh out loud.

Thank you! I keep that one on the back of my truck. Just yesterday a young (30ish?) couple pulled up beside me and told me that they liked it, and I thanked them. The young lady said "Sometimes it's hard to let the other side know what you're thinking, and keep a smile. Sir, you're doing it right!" I felt like the king of the county!

 

[fdeck]

This is something I simply cannot understand, especially in a country like the US, where the IRS seems to loom large, and so many bands mentioned on TB are made up of lawyers, accountants and dentists.

When I joined my first serious band, age 17, we had a band contract. My dad had to witness my signature because I was under age. It's the safest way to work.

As Sam Goldwyn is reported to have said; " A verbal contract isn't worth the paper it's written on!"

A written partnership agreement is certainly worth considering. One thing it does is to quickly orient a new band member into the structure of the business that's been agreed upon by the other members. If it ever has to be enforced, then it's probably worthless, because the legal costs will be more than the band is worth. So it's mainly a social gesture.

But there's another approach. You don't sign a contract when you buy supper at a restaurant. That's because your risk is limited, and there are already laws defining your business relationship. I'm an experienced business person, and I do contract-free transactions all over the place.

Here's my approach: My relationship with all bands is that I'm an independent contractor. Plain and simple. I'm responsible for my own finances, gear, and taxes. What the other band members do with their money is none of my business. As I mentioned, I'm not in a rock band, so equipment is less of an issue. In both of the bands I'm in, somebody has a small PA that they own outright, and don't mind bringing to the gig. And we live with the possibility that our lack of cash investment might limit our commercial success someday. If either band evaporates, or I get voted off the island, I'm out nothing.

This approach has one more benefit for me: I don't believe that the band needs a giant PA, with the hassle of hauling it around, and deafening the audience. Most bands are too loud. The amount of gear hauled into small venues is ridiculous. I don't feel bad about letting myself off the hook for financing something that's a bad business idea, and that will make the band sound worse. But... my approach doesn't stand in the way of anybody else financing a PA if they disagree with me.

In my view the big problem is not the lack of contracts, but the business of rock bands that "need" $20k for a PA, and several more $k for promotion and operations. Even if the band would benefit from a signed partnership agreement, it's putting the cart before the horse if the agreement isn't based on a credible business plan.

 

[DirtDog]

Can I "double-like" your post?

...

This approach has one more benefit for me: I don't believe that the band needs a giant PA, with the hassle of hauling it around, and deafening the audience. Most bands are too loud. The amount of gear hauled into small venues is ridiculous. I don't feel bad about letting myself off the hook for financing something that's a bad business idea, and that will make the band sound worse. But... my approach doesn't stand in the way of anybody else financing a PA if they disagree with me.

In my view the big problem is not the lack of contracts, but the business of rock bands that "need" $20k for a PA, and several more $k for promotion and operations. Even if the band would benefit from a signed partnership agreement, it's putting the cart before the horse if the agreement isn't based on a credible business plan.

 

[azureblue]

1 - start now looking for another project. Assume that things won't work out the way you want them to

2 - have a band meeting and lay it out. Pay attention to this: Bands are a business, so act like a business person - stay on the facts and evidence, present solutions, do not get drawn into personal attacks, and do not make any. Do not indulge in finger pointing - if you have a problem, then focus on that problem and finding a solution for it. For example: Scenario A: "Hey dudes, Joe is making me do the whole PA thing and stuff and it's a drag, like and I don't want to do it unless I get paid for it. And none of you f** ers are helping me - you all are too lazy to help, and I ain't doing your grunt work no mo'." Or scenario B: "Guys, I can't handle the PA by myself anymore. It is negatively affecting my performance. What can be done to solve this? Shall we hire a PA company, if we can't spread the work among the band members?"

3 - If it were me, the second another member started attacking me personally for any reason, I would give notice and walk away, saying something to the affect of, "'I'm sorry you feel that way, but this is not good for the band, so I will give a two weeks notice right now. " And if were me in your band, I'd be looking for another group right now..

 

[ChrisB2]

We didn't have a PA when we started, the BL purchased most of the PA and divided the cost into 4, each of us paid our share of the PA.then we find out after its paid that , we don't owned a share in the PA the BL ownes it.

OMG!

 

[Doley50]

Well , I have given the BL my new conditions, we played this weekend and yesterday I got a text from him telling me he was not going to meet them , nor was he willing to negotiate. I' am a little disappointed that he was not even willing to negotiate ! what value do I have?
I get so pissed with this BL , because he doesn't even comprehend, even a little as to were I am coming from !
He talks about how I am moody, yes I am , when I am doing all this set up at the shows with very little help and I have to chase these guys down to do a sound check ! I like to have a smoke ( cigarette) and a soda before we go on and there are times that I can't even do that ! But the singer can sit down and have a meal !
Yea, I get moody !!! *** ! Lol!
Anyway I am going to miss the money more then anything, but I have my integrity back and a great lesson learned!
Thanks for the help and input !

 

[MegaSwing]

^^^
If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and often is seen in the company of other ducks...

No one here will be surprised by this news. Now that you know this can happen, and have experienced the warning signs, don't let it happen again. That would be quite unforgiveable.

That guy will get his. He may even be getting his now. Rest assured—karma will take care of it. Carry on.

 

[Imaginary Pony]

Best of luck with finding a new band, with guys who'll respect you. As MegaSwing says, don't let it happen again; being nice to people is probably your basic nature, but a lot of people will see that as a valid reason to take advantage of you. Now you know what to look out for.

He's probably not going to believe you walk away from his band, but you shouldn't let him persuade you to give him a second chance. If he's not even willing to negotiate now, then if ever you went back, things wouldn't really improve over time.

Let us know when you start to play with a new crowd.

 

[hrodbert696]

Well , I have given the BL my new conditions, we played this weekend and yesterday I got a text from him telling me he was not going to meet them , nor was he willing to negotiate. I' am a little disappointed that he was not even willing to negotiate ! what value do I have?
I get so pissed with this BL , because he doesn't even comprehend, even a little as to were I am coming from !
He talks about how I am moody, yes I am , when I am doing all this set up at the shows with very little help and I have to chase these guys down to do a sound check ! I like to have a smoke ( cigarette) and a soda before we go on and there are times that I can't even do that ! But the singer can sit down and have a meal !
Yea, I get moody !!! *** ! Lol!
Anyway I am going to miss the money more then anything, but I have my integrity back and a great lesson learned!
Thanks for the help and input !

If there happens to be any documentation of the money you gave him for the PA, you might seriously think about small claims court. But I suppose that's unlikely to happen. Maybe if you got all the other band members to testify, I don't know. But yeah, the guy is worthless. I got a good laugh out of the bit that you owe an extra $5000 because he put the PA on his credit card, and then $2500 more because he would only be able to sell it for $2500. You're doing the right thing to quit, and frankly I wouldn't feel bad at all about telling the cautionary tale to anyone else who's thinking about working with him, booking him or going to his shows.

 

[delta7fred]

for a little over 2 years now I have been playing in a top 40 coverband , this is the first working band I have ever been in , however I feel I am losing my patience with how the band is being managed. In the beginning the BL and I worked more like partners, Working out the details from sound , promo , and so on , we talked with the notion that we ( the band ) was going to be a democracy, but now things have turned more into a dictatorship ( when it's convenient for the BL ) at this point my " responsibilities " are to pick up th PA at the BL house , arrive at the club usually an hour or so before show time ( which I have to call the club because the BL never knows when we are suppose to go on ) I unload most of the PA before anyone eles shows up, however the guitarist does help . I set up the PA , run the sound. The BL who is the drummer usually shows up last and takes a long time to set up because , he has to talk to everyone in the club!. The singer who belives she is the best singer in our state! Her words ! Will order something to eat while we are setting up ! When I complain about this behavior, the BL tells me that this is how it is with all singers in every band!! I say ******** !!
How much we get paid for a show is never disclosed , I have to ask , we should know what we're are getting paid ! , the thing is that in the beginning it was always disclosed and we always got paid at the end of the night , things change and it has to do with argent fees and taxes. Some clubs now have the BL fill out a tax form and pay with a check , with the BL withholds 20% for taxes , because this is his tax bracket, I would prefer to get I9 at the end of the year but I look at like the extra he does get is for booking the shows. I have always told him to take 10% for booking , but he refuses he would rather soak us in other stupid ways! Like spending money on websites and other stupid poopie , then he'll send out a text saying oh guys I spent $800 on expenses how do you want to pay me back ! You owe me $200 each you want me to deduct of from this weekends gigs ?
Now I don't have a problem paying for expenses but I feel we should be told beforehand how much is going to be spent and on what and we should all agree on it .
The BL has let the singer cancel and turn down shows because " she " don't want to do them ! He created a monster with this singer ! I have been playing music for over 25 plus years and have dellt with a lot of personalities but this is 2 much for me !

Wow, just wow.

Let me get this straight, you (and the rest of the band) bought the guy a PA, you schlep it, set it up, run it, chase the other members to sound check. Then the band pay the guy's tax bill and (as far as TB knows) undisclosed expenses and credit card charges. You never know what the gig earns plus the BL gets a 10% booking fee. You try and negotiate a better position for yourself and get ground even further into the dirt.

In your situation I would take 1/4 of the PA (well you did pay for it) and look for another band.

Here in the UK every band (except one that never got going) that I have been in has been a democracy. If someone is not pulling their weight things get said and if nothing changes someone usually gets fired.

I posted this in a thread by DirtDog a few days ago, this band is working particularly well compared to some others I have been in because we are all dedicated, experienced and like minded.

We split the schlepping of the PA and help each other, particularly tearing down and loading out, no one sits and watches another work or goes home before the all cars are loaded.

We are equal partners.

Drummer owns the PA we use at rehearsals. Big old and heavy and stays in the rehearsal room.
I own the PA we gig with (smaller and lighter).
All 3 of us own lights, any one person's would be adequate to gig with. Mine are small and lightweight (LED), the others are big, old and heavy. (Do you see a pattern starting to develop here?)

Drummer books most of the gigs.
Guitarist does most of the Facebook, website and promo stuff, and set lists.
I maintain and repair the gear and record, edit and distribute all rehearsals.

No-one gets any extra cut and we are all happy doing what we are good at.

 

[ChrisB2]

Well , I have given the BL my new conditions, we played this weekend and yesterday I got a text from him telling me he was not going to meet them , nor was he willing to negotiate. I' am a little disappointed that he was not even willing to negotiate ! what value do I have?
I get so pissed with this BL , because he doesn't even comprehend, even a little as to were I am coming from !
He talks about how I am moody, yes I am , when I am doing all this set up at the shows with very little help and I have to chase these guys down to do a sound check ! I like to have a smoke ( cigarette) and a soda before we go on and there are times that I can't even do that ! But the singer can sit down and have a meal !
Yea, I get moody !!! *** ! Lol!
Anyway I am going to miss the money more then anything, but I have my integrity back and a great lesson learned!
Thanks for the help and input !

So, have you quit then? It seems so, but not 100% clear from this post.

Please tell us you told this guy to shove it....

 

[PauFerro]

This guy is being BL in the worst way. He's managing for his own convenience, and is not balancing the needs of the musicians with his own. He's sluffing off some of his responsibilities to you (such as figuring out the time you play). He's making unilateral decisions about how to spend the money, and putting the costs on the band members without their consent so they walk away with zero surplus after some gigs (I assume). So, he's in a leadership schizophrenia mode -- he's being an autocratic BL/entrepreneur when it's convenient for him, but treating it as a peer-based band when it's convenient for him. And the musicians are getting the short-end of the stick.

Also, if he's holding back money for taxes, he should be paying all the expenses out of his share. Each year, I claim my expenses of equipment, website hosting, leads generation, marketing and other fees, and it usually wipes out any significant tax liability. I think he's double dipping in holding back money for taxes, while billing you guys for the expenses.

I think the BL could be acting more fairly toward you guys. If I were the BL, I'd first know what the musicians are willing to work for. I would then negotiate prices with clients that pay the musicians fairly, and then add a percent (10-25%, depending on the size of the total fee, if the market can bear it). The musicians would never know the total I was charging the client, but the surplus above musician fees would be enough to cover my expenses and taxes. I would have my own budget that I spend at will out of the surplus I generate. And since the surplus is not unlimited (and sometimes, I don't get one at all), this encourages me to NOT make frivolous purchases.

I have a few suggestions for you. The musicians I work with try to "discipline me" to get them more money all the time. Although I hate it when they do it repeatedly, it does tell me where I should stand when I quote on jobs. I would let the BL know that you have a minimum for going out -- whatever you think you can live with. I would suggest it would be different pay rates depending on the type of client. A low amount for restaurants, about the same for poor non-profits, and then higher rates for festival, well-funded non-profit, government corporate and wedding work.

Indicate that expenses are his to shoulder; you don't pay them out of your fee. You don't have to know what they are; you are an contractor for the band. Also, work to define the boundaries on your relationship. Indicate what you expect of a BL and what he can expect of you as a hired gun for the band. And this means he arranges all the logistics of call time, down-note time, breaks, duration etcetera.

If he balks I would form my own band and be the kind of BL you would like your current BL to be someday. Whether this is feasible depends on whether you have the motivation to book gigs and handle the rest of the blood and gore BL's shoulder. It sounds like you are willing to do part of it, but whether you are a gig-booker is not clear. You need to decide that for youself...

 

[Doley50]

PauFarro, I know that I can not run a band and I except that limitation. I just don't have the leadership qualities to book gigs and organize band members, what I do know is how to run sound , input ideas and go above and beyond for the greater good of the band, but when I start feeling that I am being taking advantage of , I usually have been for a while . For example I'll go to the BL house to pick up the PA and he is usually running around in his underwear " getting ready" while I lug the whole PA in my SUV, in the winter he couldn't even shovel a descent path to his front door for "me " to carry the PA! ***!!! Lol!
This was fun in the beginning but now it has become a major stress in my life !

I have quit the band ! Not sure if I'll look for another .... Probably will ! Lol

 

[PJ Muzikmansky]

PauFarro, I know that I can not run a band and I except that limitation. I just don't have the leadership qualities to book gigs and organize band members, what I do know is how to run sound , input ideas and go above and beyond for the greater good of the band, but when I start feeling that I am being taking advantage of , I usually have been for a while . For example I'll go to the BL house to pick up the PA and he is usually running around in his underwear " getting ready" while I lug the whole PA in my SUV, in the winter he couldn't even shovel a descent path to his front door for "me " to carry the PA! ***!!! Lol!
This was fun in the beginning but now it has become a major stress in my life !

I have quit the band ! Not sure if I'll look for another .... Probably will ! Lol

Doley50: A wise choice mate, and exactly what I would have done. Playing in a band should be an enjoyable experience, not a chore, and finding out you're being taken-advantage-of (which , let's be honest, you were) just rubs salt into an already festering wound. It's time to look elsewhere. Get with a group of like-minded players with whom you share common musical interests. All the best.I hope it goes well.