Timing is everything.

[mikew31]

How do you respond when the drummer tells you how to play your bass lines? And keeps insisting you do it one way when you know he is completely wrong. Stay in your lane, bro (This is meant to be lighthearted, not an attack)

 

[Freddy T]

Don't feel bad OP, sometimes these slow tunes are difficult to lock into; this tune in particular - starts out acapella and has a slow drift into the band accompaniment. But this shouldn't be an issue as every musician in the band should be cueing off the vocal and melody, especially bass since it's creating the chord (root) for the vocalist. Bass ought to be able to slow-groove this tune with the singer even without a drummer, much less a high-hat. Drummer should be doing the same thing with regard to vocalist, and just helping to establish the tempo and feel. There was probably no need to argue over timing on this. As far as the Whitney track - that hi hat is mixed low, but to most musicians it is very, very obviously there. Maybe tell him you were focused on the acapella as well as the second intro section sans drums, and then apologize and let him know he was basically right and you were wrong. As it stands, you've probably insulted his musicality and made him question yours.

 

[Drifter8230]

Wow that went south real quick, from drummer buddy to non association...over a timing issue....geez!

I always used the HH as a "clock" as well as just knowing the song inside out.

What I really like about your comment is that it clearly describes something I've FELT for 20 years but never even noticed. The high hat is the "clock."

This really makes sense in the type of song that is so fast the high hat is my only source of timing and keeps the song running "like a clock."

Mind blown

 

[bradd]

The high hat is the seconds hand and the snare is the minute hand.

 

[Sixgunn]

cb3uk. there WAS a high hat before it got mixed so damn low. i dont like the idea of blowing my ear drums out to hear a high hat. Yes i now agree its there to some extent. All he had to say was " its there so far down in the mix you can hardly hear it". I couldnt hear it at first , i still think it goes missing in lots of places, so i can only assume thats the way the guys mixed, not because he wasnt playing it. so i was arguing what are you keeping time to if you cant hear it? so its a case of chalk and cheese, and he's taken offence. i am willing to admit my mistakes, but why do people internalise it so much. I mean it was SOO SOO damn important to win an arguement you were having with yourself, lol. people are strange

Sounds to me that there may be underlying issues...

 

[Pdaddy1978]

And THATS what broke up the band?!!
Wow...you guys didn't even give Yoko a chance!

 

[Sixgunn]

Sounds to me like you were probably being a dick about it while it was happening so he blew you off. Lesson learned hopefully. Keep an open mind and a closed mouth when working out issues. Somebody else might be right. Another consideration is that it took a post to anonymous forum members to make you realize the drummer friend was right! You couldn't figure it out even after he adamantly told you what is going on with the song. You openly believed a bunch of strangers but not your friend. Just saying....

Summed up well.

 

[Sixgunn]

oddly, thats not the issue here. what you say is correct. But we got stuck on pedantry instead of just playing through the song. we didnt get that far, lol. he's telling me to keep my timing on the h/h when i am saying i can't hear the h/h. In any case, the irony of the situation is that we only had one spot to disagree on, the final break and the count in. We both started to count from different spots and came to the same start. I am not here to vent or disparage my " friend". Everyone is different i accept that. Partly my fault, I accept that. I am really here to learn and see what the actual dynamics are. H/H, side stick or bass drum, which one is appropriate.

Whatever one uses as their point of reference is appropriate as long as it works. My wonderful drummer and I often use different "rules" for counting but we both get it right. Arguing about who's system is "right" is just silly if they both work.

 

[Rabidhamster]

whero, i think my hearing is ok. When i really crank up the volume, I can hear the h/h until whitney belts it then you cant. Its not a volume level i feel comfortable at. So yea my fault its buried in the mix. Sure i can hear it in my head, but it still begs the question, if you cant hear it, what are you keeping time to? The side stick is clear as a bell. I am happy to follow what ever puts me in sync. It helps if i can hear it without going deaf too.

I agree it was a little weird to send a letter, especially with such little text, but perhaps he was wanting to support the post office.
You can hear the hat in the silences each bar even at reasonable volume on a cell phone speaker. But you also know that’s where they are because.....that’s where they go.

For a song as interminable as this Id be willing to let the time keeper in the band go ahead and keep the time and I play to his tempo. If you need a click track put the click where he wants it.

Don’t forget the tempo of this song as most people are actually familiar with it is actually a little faster, radio plays like 5% fast on average iirc. That is to say - close enough is close enough. What’s important is bass and drums decide on a tempo and keep it - this song is 100% about the vocals everything else is garnish. You’re not playing along to a recording you’re playing a song.

 

[Sixgunn]

I have to wonder about a business partnership that can be so quickly dissolved over a hi hat in a recording. There has to be more to the story.

Yep.

 

[jdh3000]

Ok so my buddy drummer comes over to my place to rehearse a couple of songs. One song in particular, whitney Houston I will always love you. We have a very talented young girl who really can nail it. Anyway we wanted to get the timing right when we rehearse with her. Ist issue, i put a click track to it to measure what it is we are doing. Ist problem, it was obviously recorded on tape and the timing moves around a bit. After about an hr or so i have it all straightened out. Then my mate starts rambling on about "he keeps the time off the high hat". If you listen carefully, there is no high hat only a side stick click. Then he wants to argue that hes right and i dont know what i am talking about. "Ok, i hear what you say, but there is no high hat on the recording".
He just wrote me a letter to say he doesnt want to associate with me anymore.
*** just happened? Look, I am the first to admit i dont know it all, far from it, but is he talking in tongues, lol?

Every drummer I've ever worked with was right, you have to work around that.

It's always good for everyone to sit down and listen together. We do that all the time. We have to take our egos out of it and change whatever needs to be changed for the sake of the song.
Often someone thinks something is there that isn't.

We may in the end all agree, well it needs a high hat, or this or that in it.

Working in a band, dealing with temperamental musicians and knowing how to be diplomatic is an art/skill in itself.
It took me years to figure out what to do. Sometimes you have to just say ok, and go on.

It's kind of like a marriage where you'll win out in the end if you can let all the little things slide.

Try to work it out with him. If everything else is going ok, think about the big picture.

Peace!

 

[Guild B301]

What do other more seasoned players think?

I’ve played drums professionally for over 40 years. Played bass for even longer. Bassists usually stand to my right. We play loud metal. Live, they can probably only hear the hihat some of the time. So you need to rely on the bass drum and snare. Other than your egos getting in the way, I didn’t find a problem. There is hihat on that song, but if he wanted to make a big deal of it, he should have pointed the hihat out.
Maybe you have hearing problems.
BTW, Dolly Patton’s original version is better. Go with that one, if your singer can do it.

 

[aprod]

All this discussion over a hihat? If you can't feel the tempo of any song you got some homework to do. The drummer didn't have the patience to wait for you to learn how to count.

 

[aprod]

oddly, thats not the issue here. what you say is correct. But we got stuck on pedantry instead of just playing through the song. we didnt get that far, lol. he's telling me to keep my timing on the h/h when i am saying i can't hear the h/h. In any case, the irony of the situation is that we only had one spot to disagree on, the final break and the count in. We both started to count from different spots and came to the same start. I am not here to vent or disparage my " friend". Everyone is different i accept that. Partly my fault, I accept that. I am really here to learn and see what the actual dynamics are. H/H, side stick or bass drum, which one is appropriate.

This is so simple. The bass drum is on the 1,3, the snare 2,4, hi hat or ride 1/8 notes.

 

[JeezyMcNuggles]

Another tragic chunk of time wasted to Whitney Houston. Spending so much time and energy debating something so stupid was your first problem. Im angry with myself i spent any time reading this. just find a pocket and sit in it. who cares if theres hi hat on the recording, YOU'RE playing it now. Geez.

Don't forget the EPIC slap solo with 2 octavers, a flange, and 4 different drive pedals.

 

[Killing Floor]

Let's unpack a few things from your baggage:

1) It's a Dolly song.
2) I think it's remarkable that your friend took the time to write a letter. Most people just text. Admire the commitment to tradition.
3) Your drummer is a drummer, therefore, a flake with timing issues that he/she is sensitive to. This cannot be corrected. People like to say it can be corrected, we call those people "drummers".

There is no cure for Lackorhythmia, it's heartbreaking. Won't you please help? For less than a dollar a day we can make a difference by providing headphone click tracks for drummers with Lackorhythmia so that some day they can become productive members of bands in a non-creative but pleasurable way.

 

[DWBass]

Any who.................why is that song y'all are having such a hard time to keep time on? I play in a R&B band and have played that song numerous times. It ain't hard to play......as long as you know the tune.

 

[kevindahl]

It sounds like you are the won that wanted to win the argument or at least as much as your mate. You were wrong, admit and apologize or move on. The hats are low but are quite obvious and just playing a side stick on 2 and 4 would suck, to my ears anyways.

 

[brokenguitarist]

Fire the drummer...?

This thread has been very valuable to me. I'm new to bass and learning importance of timing and wheres and when helps a lot. Thanks

 

[Peteyboy]

Who keeps the singer, you or your former drummer?